Distortion in Hifiman Sundara, not enough amp or driver issue?

[pablomelguera]

Hello. I'm having an issue with some brand new Hifiman Sundaras. I'm noticiong some distortion in the bass region. Using this tester

, starting at 0:40 seconds, i hear some distortion along with the bass sine wave.

Testing with a Focusrite 2i4 at max volume, but with YouTube at 45% i dont hear any problem at all. If i start cranking up the volume (50, 60, 70%) I start hearing more and more distorsion.

What do you think? Is this a driver issue or just my Focusrite who isn't capable of moving them?

The Focusrite has:
Power into 32 ohms : 24 mW
Signal-to-Noise ratio : 103 dB, ‘A’-weighted
Maximum Output Level into 32 ohms +10 dBu (+8 dBV)

Thanks very much for your help. It's not so easy for me to return them because I live in Costa Rica. I've alredy contacted Hifiman support and no response yet.

 

[Rock Rabbit]

No problem with audio in the video at that point. Try reducing volume to 2/3 in Focusrite hp out, test on another amp with headphone output or directly to PC audio out. If distortion is on both drivers is most probable an amp issue

 

[levimax]

Hello. I'm having an issue with some brand new Hifiman Sundaras. I'm noticiong some distortion in the bass region. Using this tester

, starting at 0:40 seconds, i hear some distortion along with the bass sine wave.

Testing with a Focusrite 2i4 at max volume, but with YouTube at 45% i dont hear any problem at all. If i start cranking up the volume (50, 60, 70%) I start hearing more and more distorsion.

What do you think? Is this a driver issue or just my Focusrite who isn't capable of moving them?

The Focusrite has:
Power into 32 ohms : 24 mW
Signal-to-Noise ratio : 103 dB, ‘A’-weighted
Maximum Output Level into 32 ohms +10 dBu (+8 dBV)

Thanks very much for your help. It's not so easy for me to return them because I live in Costa Rica. I've alredy contacted Hifiman support and no response yet.

Are you using any DSP room correction EQ?

 

[trl]

Based on https://www.stereophile.com/content...-open-planar-magnetic-headphones-measurements Sundara will reach to 120 dB SPL at 970 mW/channel, so you might want a headamp able to deliver at least 2 x 1 Watts @ 43 Ohms with a SINAD better than 90 dB at max. volume, to be 110% sure that the headamp used will not distort when pushing up the volume and you're also not running out of juice when feed with low-volume recorded tracks (e.g.: some older track).

Focusrite is not for driving Planar headphones, instead you can use headsets dedicated for monitoring purposes (usually 32 Ohms impedance and > 100 dB @ 1mW SPL. Of course, you can use Focusrite built-in amp at low to moderate levels to drive Sundara, but do not expect non-distorted peaks higher than 90 dB SPL.

 

[pablomelguera]

No problem with audio in the video at that point. Try reducing volume to 2/3 in Focusrite hp out, test on another amp with headphone output or directly to PC audio out. If distortion is on both drivers is most probable an amp issue

When reducing the level in the focusrite the issue is gone. Using the pc output or my phone there is no problem. But they arent capable of moving the phones to a good level, for me at least

I own a pair of akg k550 and I never had this issue using the focusrite at 100%

Also I was worried that maybe the headphones do have some problem when they are at a "high" volume. On wednesday i'll test them with a more powerful amp and i'll post here the result

 

[pablomelguera]

Are you using any DSP room correction EQ?

Not using any of those. Only tidal or flac files directly to the focusrite

 

[trl]

I own a pair of akg k550 and I never had this issue using the focusrite at 100%

I also own K550 and these are way more sensitive that Sundara; Focusrite will drive them very well. I'm using Audio Technica ATH-M30x and I'm pleased. I do not recommend pairing Sundara with Focusrite due to not enough power to drive them.

 

[pablomelguera]

Based on https://www.stereophile.com/content...-open-planar-magnetic-headphones-measurements Sundara will reach to 120 dB SPL at 970 mW/channel, so you might want a headamp able to deliver at least 2 x 1 Watts @ 43 Ohms with a SINAD better than 90 dB at max. volume, to be 110% sure that the headamp used will not distort when pushing up the volume and you're also not running out of juice when feed with low-volume recorded tracks (e.g.: some older track).

Focusrite is not for driving Planar headphones, instead you can use headsets dedicated for monitoring purposes (usually 32 Ohms impedance and > 100 dB @ 1mW SPL. Of course, you can use Focusrite built-in amp at low to moderate levels to drive Sundara, but do not expect non-distorted peaks higher than 90 dB SPL.

Thanks for the answer. I think you explained it perfectly.

One thing that I dont get is that when using a pair of akg k550 with the focusrite at 100% I dont hear any distortion. If the focusrite is feeding the sundaras with distortion, why not also to the akg? I'm just being curious here. I totally get that planars need more powe.

Sory for my english and thank you all for your time and your knowledge

 

[trl]

One thing that I dont get is that when using a pair of akg k550 with the focusrite at 100% I dont hear any distortion. If the focusrite is feeding the sundaras with distortion, why not also to the akg? I'm just being curious here.

Interesting, allow me to assume that K550 has probably same distortions as the Sundara, but given the much lower SPL/loudness Sundara produces to your ears it is easier for you to perceive those distortions, while the K550 is probably sounding very high with volume to the max. and the loudness is masking the distortions.

I will, however, try my HE-560 on my Focusrite Solo 3rd Gen and compare it with K550, then I will get back here with impressions.

 

[pablomelguera]

Interesting, allow me to assume that K550 has probably same distortions as the Sundara, but given the much lower SPL/loudness Sundara produces to your ears it is easier for you to perceive those distortions, while the K550 is probably sounding very high with volume to the max. and the loudness is masking the distortions.

I will, however, try my HE-560 on my Focusrite Solo 3rd Gen and compare it with K550, then I will get back here with impressions.

That will be great. I'll make more tests with these 2 headphones with the focusrite and also with oneother interface and post my impresions here

 

[maxxevv]

Sure you're picking up distortion from the Sundara and not because of the amps output limitations clipping of the output instead ?

 

[pablomelguera]

I've just tried my AKG K550 with the Focusrite. At 70% its ok, when I start increasing the volume, the distortion is clearly there. It was definitely the Focusrite. I have to say im pretty impresed with the amount of distortion i get when I go avobe 70% in the headphones out. IDK if its only mine or happends to all of them.

 

[pablomelguera]

Based on https://www.stereophile.com/content...-open-planar-magnetic-headphones-measurements Sundara will reach to 120 dB SPL at 970 mW/channel, so you might want a headamp able to deliver at least 2 x 1 Watts @ 43 Ohms with a SINAD better than 90 dB at max. volume, to be 110% sure that the headamp used will not distort when pushing up the volume and you're also not running out of juice when feed with low-volume recorded tracks (e.g.: some older track).

Focusrite is not for driving Planar headphones, instead you can use headsets dedicated for monitoring purposes (usually 32 Ohms impedance and > 100 dB @ 1mW SPL. Of course, you can use Focusrite built-in amp at low to moderate levels to drive Sundara, but do not expect non-distorted peaks higher than 90 dB SPL.

Looking for DAC/Amps in Costa Rica, so difficult to find these kind of gear here, i found the Topping D3:
Maximum output power 165mW (RL = 32Ω, THD + N = 1%).

Based on the stereophile link, Sundaras will need 0.97 mW to reach 90d BSPL. But you said 970 mW/channel to get to 120dB.

If I see it that way, these amp wouldn't be enough for me. But the Focusrite i'm currently using, gives only 24 mW, and I don't think i'm needing a lot more from it. Also I read some audiophiles easily moving some 250 ohm DT 990.

Do you think this Topping D3 would be enough for me? Or would you advice me to get something more powefull.

Here is the rest of the data of the D3
Amp parameters:
Range of 16-600Ω load impedance
Maximum output power 165mW (RL = 32Ω, THD + N = 1%)
110mW (RL = 300Ω, THD + N = 1%)
70mW (RL = 600Ω, THD + N = 1%)
Minimum Distortion 0.0007% (RL = 32Ω, Pout = 50mW)
Typical Distortion (@ 1kHz) 0.0032% (RL = 32Ω, Pout = 50mW)
4-32kHz frequency response range
Frequency response flatness 0.04dB (20-20kHz)
Input Sensitivity 2.3Vrms
Noise floor Gain (@ 1kHz) 9dB
110dB SNR
19.2V output voltage swing


Decoder parameters:
Line Out Output Level 2.38Vrms @ 1kHz
Minimum distortion 0.00050% (sampling frequency 96kHz)
Typical Distortion (@ 1kHz) 0.00082% (sampling frequency 96kHz)
Dynamic range 117dB (sampling frequency 96kHz)
Frequency response flatness 0.04dB (20-20kHz)
Background noise 114dB SNR
Static power consumption of about 3.3W
Maximum sampling rate 96kHz USB interface
Optical fiber, coaxial maximum sampling rate 192kHz

 

[fieldcar]

Just threw my monolith M570's and hifiman He-4XX's on my focusrite 2i4, and they audibly distort above 50% volume which is pretty quiet. The topping D3 you're mentioning would put the power output near my earstudio HUD100(138mW@33Ohm). This gives me better volume, but pretty moderate volume levels ~60-70dB, which I don't mind on the go, but they dont replace my JDS Atom or THX AAA 789. Like others have said, if you want loud, you need at least 1Watt@33Ohms for most planars, I wouldn't buy an amp with lesser specs, as you'll be wasting your time. It may be best to just return the sundara's and get something else like the fidelio X2's or Koss kph30i or porta pro which can be driven on the focusrite 2i4 to high levels without distortion.

 

[pablomelguera]

Just threw my monolith M570's and hifiman He-4XX's on my focusrite 2i4, and they audibly distort above 50% volume which is pretty quiet. The topping D3 you're mentioning would put the power output near my earstudio HUD100(138mW@33Ohm). This gives me better volume, but pretty moderate volume levels ~60-70dB, which I don't mind on the go, but they dont replace my JDS Atom or THX AAA 789. Like others have said, if you want loud, you need at least 1Watt@33Ohms for most planars, I wouldn't buy an amp with lesser specs, as you'll be wasting your time. It may be best to just return the sundara's and get something else like the fidelio X2's or Koss kph30i or porta pro which can be driven on the focusrite 2i4 to high levels without distortion.

Thanks for your time bro. I really loved the Sundaras, so I'll go for some decent amp to power them.

 

[fieldcar]

Thanks for your time bro. I really loved the Sundaras, so I'll go for some decent amp to power them.

Yeah. The sundaras are many peoples endgame headphones, so I think you are making the right choice. Can you get the monoprice monolith stuff by you? The liquid spark amp + dac is worth looking into.

 

[pablomelguera]

Yeah. The sundaras are many peoples endgame headphones, so I think you are making the right choice. Can you get the monoprice monolith stuff by you? The liquid spark amp + dac is worth looking into.

As I live in Costa Rica, I don't have too many options. In fact, I've only found the Topping D3 used in facebook so far. I'll have to buy something on Ebay or Amazon and pay for the shipping

 

[fieldcar]

As I live in Costa Rica, I don't have too many options. In fact, I've only found the Topping D3 used in facebook so far. I'll have to buy something on Ebay or Amazon and pay for the shipping

Ah. Yeah. Im not familiar with what's easy to get down there. I'm up in the Midwest in the US. Maybe aliexpress is an option. I've used them a few times to avoid taxes and shipping fees. The big downsize is that it sometimes takes a month to arrive. Well, good luck!

 

[pablomelguera]

Yes I tought about them too. I'll see whats there. If I have to wait a month, I'll still enjoy the sundaras with the Focusrite... Life is good.

 

[trl]

would

Get something that has been reviewed on this website by Amir. D3 is a 7 years old headamp that lacks power to drive planars and I really can't find any real measurements on it.

Topping A50s should be fine, Magni 3, Atom...etc. If you want to use your existing Focusrite, then get a headamp that has a balanced input, so you can connect Focusrite via TRS-to-XLR balanced cables.