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Distortion down to -300 dB, what exactly does that mean physically?

Spkrdctr

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So, when all is said and done. JJ has put a new design goal in front of me. I want a system that can operate in the realm of Giga Atmosphere. Anything less will not do. Now I can use that line to out snob the biggest audiophile snobs. JJ made my day!
 

j_j

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So, when all is said and done. JJ has put a new design goal in front of me. I want a system that can operate in the realm of Giga Atmosphere. Anything less will not do. Now I can use that line to out snob the biggest audiophile snobs. JJ made my day!
:facepalm::D:D:D:D:D:D
:eek:

You have to admit, given the weight (or mass) of an atomic mass unit, the 300dB thing is kind of, well interesting.
 
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peterzuid

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I don't think that's what he is claiming.
He can't measure -300dB obviously nor can he hear something in level 150dB below the hearing limits.

What the good man claims is that in the digital domain (enough bits are needed) he states that he can hear audible differences between filters that seem to only show some simulated differences as low as -300dB.

Of course it is a bunch of nonsense but that's what he appears to mean. The man knows darn well about practical noise levels.
With those statements he wants to affirm to potential buyers that his 'stuff' matters and even an old geezer like him can hear that.
Advertising ... that's it.
Fully agree on your statement but unfortunately many members did not get this one and still discussing about it and creating a hype (fmoi) to be in favor of the person or against him. In addition, mentioning Rob Watts a "good man" and stating it is a bunch of nonsense what he ment seems you/we gained more experience/knowledge of D/A conversion then he has demonstrated. Frankly, for me this is a quite arrogant statement as I see him as a stubborn sinc filter function seeker and I like and enjoy his vision. Nature still has a lot to learn us and mathematics can be our guide. Just my opinion without science on a statement without science....................
 

amirm

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Frankly, for me this is a quite arrogant statement as I see him as a stubborn sinc filter function seeker and I like and enjoy his vision.
Would you like and enjoy the vision of someone who advocates washing your dishes 100 times? Or even 1000 times?
 

peterzuid

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Would you like and enjoy the vision of someone who advocates washing your dishes 100 times? Or even 1000 times?
I would like to get your D/A conversion system and put this on a test with the Chord I own. Gladly to pay whatever in case it sounds better.
 

pkane

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Seems you don't like complex and willing to understand this is needed for this goal ?

A million taps filter is so yesterday! ;) Try a few billion if you think more is better. A thousand times better, no? There’s a recent blog by Archimago that analyzes one such software upsampler and filter and and its performance. Compare that to your Chord! :)
 
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peterzuid

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What's your point ? Just reading emotions. It's not about you or me, is it ? Please start listening (instead of reading) and judge for your self, we do not have to agree.
 

SIY

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pkane

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What's your point ? Just reading emotions. It's not about you or me, is it ? Please start listening (instead of reading) and judge for your self, we do not have to agree.

What emotion? I’ve listened to, created and tested all kinds of filters, tap size from 256 to many millions. I’ve also analyzed and compared their performance. I can indeed judge for myself.
 

peterzuid

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A million taps filter is so yesterday! ;) Try a few billion if you think more is better. A thousand times better, no? There’s a recent blog by Archimago that analyzes one such software upsampler and filter and and its performance. Compare that to your Chord! :)
Just read this article and I'm not sure this man knows what he talks about but surely believes in it ! There are more but they conclude
"And whatever you do, Enjoy the Music" instead of "As always... Enjoy the music!"
 

pkane

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Just read this article and I'm not sure this man knows what he talks about but surely believes in it ! There are more but they conclude
"And whatever you do, Enjoy the Music" instead of "As always... Enjoy the music!"

It requires knowing at least as much as someone else to be able to judge how much they know. Considering he’s not stating opinions but reporting actual objective results, your opinion of him is irrelevant.
 

audio2design

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Seems you don't like complex and willing to understand this is needed for this goal ?

I am not sure what you are stating. It has not been proven mathematically or experimentally that these super long length filters are needed or whether a much shorten one in combination with analog filtering is sufficient.
 

j_j

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Seems you don't like complex and willing to understand this is needed for this goal ?

What are you even talking about? I've designed digital filters since the late 1970's. I've published papers on the subject, as well as papers on the audibility of artifacts due partially to filtering, etc.

I can't even tell if you mean "complex filters" (meaning coefficients with an imaginary part), or "complex filters" as filters neither minimum phase or constant delay, or what you mean, and I'm inclined to think you don't know, either.

What does "high tap filters" even mean? I asked you before, and you chose to engage in professional disparagement rather than answer the question.

SO WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "HIGH TAP FILTERS". Allow me to make one thing clear, IT'S NOT A TERM IN THE ART.

After you cope with that, we can figure out what you think you actually meant.

So, what are "high tap filters"? Speak up, answer the question, and stop insulting others.

As to 300dB dynamic range, yes, that's ridiculous. The SPL of 1 atmosphere peak signal is 194dB. The noise floor of the atmosphere in the audio bandwidth at the eardrun is 6dB SPL or a bit more.

Learn for once.
 

Blumlein 88

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What are you even talking about? I've designed digital filters since the late 1970's. I've published papers on the subject, as well as papers on the audibility of artifacts due partially to filtering, etc.

I can't even tell if you mean "complex filters" (meaning coefficients with an imaginary part), or "complex filters" as filters neither minimum phase or constant delay, or what you mean, and I'm inclined to think you don't know, either.

What does "high tap filters" even mean? I asked you before, and you chose to engage in professional disparagement rather than answer the question.

SO WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "HIGH TAP FILTERS". Allow me to make one thing clear, IT'S NOT A TERM IN THE ART.

After you cope with that, we can figure out what you think you actually meant.

So, what are "high tap filters"? Speak up, answer the question, and stop insulting others.

As to 300dB dynamic range, yes, that's ridiculous. The SPL of 1 atmosphere peak signal is 194dB. The noise floor of the atmosphere in the audio bandwidth at the eardrun is 6dB SPL or a bit more.

Learn for once.
So your saying nothing less than a full 188 db dynamic range can do real sounds justice. I though it was actually a bit below 0 db SPL. Just rounding off we need 200 db dynamic range. Then again, the masking that occurs (perhaps permanently) with 194 dbSPL would be extensive.
 

j_j

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So your saying nothing less than a full 188 db dynamic range can do real sounds justice. I though it was actually a bit below 0 db SPL. Just rounding off we need 200 db dynamic range. Then again, the masking that occurs (perhaps permanently) with 194 dbSPL would be extensive.


No, I'm hardly saying that. Useful sensation happens from about -10dB SPL to about 90dB SPL then the mechanisms start to choke.

At 140dB you risk instant hearing loss.

194dB would destroy your middle ear in one pulse. Also your house, your trees, your car, your land, your body. The point is simple, the only transducers that hit 194dB are military, and to be kept "far away from us".

As to noise floor, the 6dB Noise floor amounts to something like -18dB SPL or so in the erb you are most sensitive in. The actual noise is roughly white, 20-20K broadband noise, but most of it is in frequencies where your ear is not so sensitive. Curiously, that level is *JUST* below the absolute threshold of hearing. A very few people have reported, in the AT&T anechoic chamber (which used to be very, very quiet inside, but which was at last experience, rather neglected) maybe hearing this. Young people, sitting quietly. When you sit there quietly you easily hear your heartbeat, your breathing, blood flow in the head, etc.

Using a good, high quality audio system, I can see up to about 18 bits being necessary if you have an absolutely quiet listening room, which is kind of rare in this day and age.
 

thewas

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300dB dynamic range would be good to replicate massive volcano, earthquake and bombs :p:facepalm:

1627287737080.png


PS: Sorry, didn't find a similar nice chart in English.
 

Plcamp

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Does this mean that if you listen very carefully, you can detect the butterfly before it’s effect?
 
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