Discussions, conversations, trolling and disruptions

[Frank Dernie]

I am an engineer, and my current role is in regulatory policy and acting as a consultative observer to an international regulatory body. One of the biggest problems I have is that the bureaucrats representing governments only want simple binary (sound byte) answers to complex questions. When I offer an honest opinion on a technical issue invariably someone will whinge about typical engineers refusing to answer a simple question with a simple answer blah blah blah because unless you understand certain qualifications then it is very easy to take information completely out of context and end up in a world of sh#t.

I know somebody who is a scientific adviser to a government. She told me that often they want the advice so simplified that all salient points have been removed. They can’t understand the complex reality at all.

 

[JJB70]

I know somebody who is a scientific adviser to a government. She told me that often they want the advice so simplified that all salient points have been removed. They can’t understand the complex reality at all.

Why do I feel a sense of knowing exactly what your friend is saying......

I was once asked to provide an overview of a particularly complex technical issue (black carbon emissions), at the end of which the representative of a government most would assume would know better responded with "that was all very technical so I didn't listen to any of it". I thought that just summed the whole thing up.

I am convinced that the Chinese are extracting the urine from most of the rest of the world in my particular circle by submitting highly technical documents with a lot of intimidating looking maths which they know fine well few others attending a particular meeting will understand. I think they're great.

 

[Soniclife]

the representative of a government most would assume would know better

I think your overestimating most people's faith in those that govern us .
Are the civil servants as bad as the ministers?

 

[sergeauckland]

I think your overestimating most people's faith in those that govern us .
Are the civil servants as bad as the ministers?

From my experience, the technical civil servants know what they're doing. The problem comes explaining what they're doing to their senior civil servants who bye and large are not technical, so can't follow the technical detail. Then, these senior CS have to explain it to ministers who again bye and large are lawyers or history graduates with next to zero understanding of the technical issues. That's why it's currently so refreshing to have a Defence Secretary with a military background as a Naval Reservist.

It'll never change until we get a technocrat government made up of specialists.....who then won't understand political realities, and how to 'dress up' information for the masses.


S

 

[JJB70]

I've often wondered about the dysfunctional nature of much of government. I think it is too easy to blame inept civil servants and such like. I used to do a lot with the British Ministry of Defence Equipment and Support organisation at Abbey Wood in Bristol (before my current role). Defence procurement is often held up as a good example of government ineptitude (and not just in the UK, it is basically the same story in most countries) yet there is no shortage of very bright people at Abbey Wood and I have to say that the people I worked with were all extremely competent, dedicated and hard working, certainly I'd think twice before getting into a technical argument with most of them as they knew their stuff. Quite why and where it goes wrong is an interesting question that's a good subject for a thesis. I found the main issues were political indecision and an unwillingness to face the reality of defence material costs and the consequential implications that might have for defence policy and capability.

 

[Soniclife]

@sergeauckland & @JJB70
My question was a bit of a cheeky leading one, as my wife used to be one of those technical civil servants. The impression I have is that most people in public service are trying to do what they see as the right thing, and this goes quite a long way up the food chain, until you get to the people who are hoping to get the very top jobs one day, or are already in one, and trying to kept it.
The description of a technocrat government is what I've always thought would work best, in truth probably full of people who you would not want to get stuck taking to at a party, but who can do methodical detailed work over the long term to drive improvements, people who would never tell you there is a simple fix to hugely complicated systems, with a huge number of issues already identifed. They will never get elected though.

 

[hvbias]

I've often wondered about the dysfunctional nature of much of government. I think it is too easy to blame inept civil servants and such like. I used to do a lot with the British Ministry of Defence Equipment and Support organisation at Abbey Wood in Bristol (before my current role). Defence procurement is often held up as a good example of government ineptitude (and not just in the UK, it is basically the same story in most countries) yet there is no shortage of very bright people at Abbey Wood and I have to say that the people I worked with were all extremely competent, dedicated and hard working, certainly I'd think twice before getting into a technical argument with most of them as they knew their stuff. Quite why and where it goes wrong is an interesting question that's a good subject for a thesis. I found the main issues were political indecision and an unwillingness to face the reality of defence material costs and the consequential implications that might have for defence policy and capability.

Things ultimately coming down to money is not a surprise with anything government related.

Months ago I was reading on /r/investing that one guy makes a living going to government auctions buying up equipment from offices, farms, etc then flipping them for a profit. These are items that are a few years old at most but they sell them off so that they can show a deficit on their budget so they don't get their following year's budget slashed. He traveled all over California doing this and he wasn't the only one doing it. I've simplified this greatly, but it was so damn bizarre to read.

 

[Soniclife]

These are items that are a few years old at most but they sell them off so that they can show a deficit on their budget so they don't get their following year's budget slashed.

This is sadly standard in many large organisations the world over, not just governments. Whoever came up with the idea that reducing budgets if the money wasn't all spent really didn't understand human behaviour. 11 months of not spending money on things that would increase profits, then 1 month of squandering it in a panic. Genus.

 

[Thomas savage]

There's cognitive dissonance within an individual that they then seem to expel from within with accusations of trolling aimed at those with contrary views and then there are actual trolls that spend their free time joyously poking your eyes and intentionally causing annoyance for no other reason than their own amusement.

Generally in order to distinguish between those two folks one must afford them a deal of time to either hang themselves or show a more genuine interest in the subject and integrity of discussion.

When it comes to actual action been taken you must consider the effect of taking no action versus the effect of actually doing something. You can be sure either way it's a ball ache for the moderator who is destined to be kicked in the nuts regardless.

The classic example being expressed in this thread " how come you ban that guy but not this guy" .

You are all still here and the forum still exists without any great moderation and certainly without the ridiculous amount of effort I used to put in. I suggest it carries on that way and you can all just suck it up and console yourselves with the fact this is a free environment that cost you nothing. It's very unique in its ideals and aspirations so just enjoy and contribute to what makes it great.

There will be the odd antagonist some will just be missguided and some will be taking the piss.. Coming on a audio forum and spending your free time, a lot of your free time to poke fun and take the piss out of a bunch of people you'll never meet.....

I think we can all agree their sad life's are punishment enough for them and consolation enough for us.

Nighty night.