Discrepancy speaker Specs vs Measurements

[AdamG]

But where did you get this classified info? I looked around on Polk's site and 3rd-party's no luck.

You said classified info. Now we have to silence you. And we were just starting to form bonds with you. Oh well…..3……2…….1.

 

[manu3l]

right here on Polk's website:
View attachment 241214

Thanks! I've a hard time on these mobile websites when viewing from desktop, so much blank space.
Curious that they have the info the overall series doc but not the model specific one.

 

[Chrispy]

Polk and some others sometimes doesn't make all the specs readily findable on the product page without digging into the speaker manual or other literature. Frequency response is one thing, spl and/or distortion for that frequency response is something else, and often not provided, especially on the low end (but as was said, with small drivers it's just going to be limited, particularly in larger rooms).

 

[manu3l]

Polk and some others sometimes doesn't make all the specs readily findable on the product page without digging into the speaker manual or other literature. Frequency response is one thing, spl and/or distortion for that frequency response is something else, and often not provided, especially on the low end (but as was said, with small drivers it's just going to be limited, particularly in larger rooms).

It sure seems like. Now I'm trying to find the info for the S20 and ES20... strong research but pretty fun learning about speakers

You said classified info. Now we have to silence you. And we were just starting to form bonds with you. Oh well…..3……2…….1.

Wait, a couple of more posts, please

 

[mhardy6647]

Hard to go wrong with those. New from GPA?

that's a negative, Houston.

 

[mhardy6647]

Polk is still pretty good about their products -- their full specs do usually include most of the useful information, at least as they measure and rate it. Their formal customer support isn't exactly award-winning under their current ownership, but the informal customer support (and general access to useful information) on their forum is actually still quite good.

Polk Audio Forum

 

[Fredygump]

Hi wonderful audiophile people, so nice to have such valuable info and feedback on this forum.

Been researching speakers that go deep in low frequencies and found discrepancies across both tests and specs.
Notably about mean on-axis levels as well as frequency response range.

1. How can a manufacturer claim 39hz but be tested at 64??
Namely the Polk XT20, S20 and ES20 which are rated 38, 39 and 44hz at +/-3dB respectively.

2. Does lowering the mids via EQ effectively raises the lower frequency threshold?

3. What else can I use as a cue whether a speaker can produce acceptable levels at 40-50hz?
4. As a side question, should I bother with 2 x 6" drivers for a wide and open room or go with 2 x 8" speakers, this is for a sub-less application.

The question to ask is, "What are modern speakers designed to do?" They are designed to be paired with subwoofers, which means designed to extend to 90 or 100hz.

My thought is don't fight it. High pass the speakers at ~100hz, because that will make pretty much any small speaker sound much better. You get better mids by limiting bass extension, but it doesn't go the other way. Assume the bass is already compromised on any small speaker!

I would find a pair of small subs that roughly match the look of bookshelf speakers you prefer. I would put short stands on the subs, and place the bookshelf speakers on the stands. Now you have a full range speaker! Two subs are always better than 1, and you can make them stereo or summed. If stereo, you can cross them higher than 100hz to take pressure off the mids.

My old setup was 2 studio monitors (M-Audio M3-8) with 2 BX subwoofers in a stereo arrangement. It worked great.

 

[manu3l]

The question to ask is, "What are modern speakers designed to do?" They are designed to be paired with subwoofers, which means designed to extend to 90 or 100hz.

My thought is don't fight it. High pass the speakers at ~100hz, because that will make pretty much any small speaker sound much better. You get better mids by limiting bass extension, but it doesn't go the other way. Assume the bass is already compromised on any small speaker!

I would find a pair of small subs that roughly match the look of bookshelf speakers you prefer. I would put short stands on the subs, and place the bookshelf speakers on the stands. Now you have a full range speaker! Two subs are always better than 1, and you can make them stereo or summed. If stereo, you can cross them higher than 100hz to take pressure off the mids.

My old setup was 2 studio monitors (M-Audio M3-8) with 2 BX subwoofers in a stereo arrangement. It worked great.

I completely agree and came to terms with that fact. I don't mind going vintage. My problem is that I cannot find subs for cheap and leaving abroad I need to pay shipping "twice" so I'm doubling budget!

How about this small 12" bookshelf?

 

[Fredygump]

I completely agree and came to terms with that fact. I don't mind going vintage. My problem is that I cannot find subs for cheap and leaving abroad I need to pay shipping "twice" so I'm doubling budget!

How about this small 12" bookshelf?

Have you looked at active studio monitors? They are known to be a good value, and are more technically precise than standard home speakers. (But be aware they are usually priced individually, not as a pair.) Something like a Yamaha HS8 would be excellent. I have M-Audio M3-8s which are nice, but discontinued. There are lots of good choices. I pretty much stopped caring about passive speakers once I discovered active monitors.

The sony in the picture would do the trick, if you can find them locally.

DIY is a good option for subwoofers. That's what I would do/ am doing. But in my view, DIY is not always worth doing. Manufacturers have a clear edge making cheap speakers.

Going DIY, I would think about building subwoofers that double as speaker stands! A simple woofer in a sealed box is pretty hard to mess up.

Have you seen the Audioengine 6" subwoofer? The cabinet is like 10"x10"x10". Costs $299. Shipping wouldn't be too bad given the small size. Emotiva has the Airmotive SE8 which isn't much bigger. I don't know what your budget is, but subs like this should pair well with bookshelf speakers, without costing too much to ship.

 

[manu3l]

Have you looked at active studio monitors? They are known to be a good value, and are more technically precise than standard home speakers. (But be aware they are usually priced individually, not as a pair.) Something like a Yamaha HS8 would be excellent. I have M-Audio M3-8s which are nice, but discontinued. There are lots of good choices. I pretty much stopped caring about passive speakers once I discovered active monitors.

The sony in the picture would do the trick, if you can find them locally.

DIY is a good option for subwoofers. That's what I would do/ am doing. But in my view, DIY is not always worth doing. Manufacturers have a clear edge making cheap speakers.

Going DIY, I would think about building subwoofers that double as speaker stands! A simple woofer in a sealed box is pretty hard to mess up.

Have you seen the Audioengine 6" subwoofer? The cabinet is like 10"x10"x10". Costs $299. Shipping wouldn't be too bad given the small size. Emotiva has the Airmotive SE8 which isn't much bigger. I don't know what your budget is, but subs like this should pair well with bookshelf speakers, without costing too much to ship.

I am looking at jbl, Kali and edifier sm's yes. Do their bass drop off suddenly or are they still usable in a ht environment?

I'm currently using a Logitech Z313, and equalized it seems to do well until 40hz. It's just that it doesn't fill my big room and has a tinny sound throughout.

EDIT: In regards of dropping the mids and highs via EQ, it does lower the -3 dB levels by effectively raising the bass.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I'm currently using a Logitech Z313, and equalized it seems to do well until 40hz. It's just that it doesn't fill my big room and has a tinny sound throughout.

It's a cheap Logitech 2.1 system, so that's hardly a major surprise.

How big a room and what listening distance are we talking? What's the Logitech plugged into? What sort of budget is there?

8" class monitors tend to make it to around 40 Hz quite regularly, so that's what I'd be looking at. You've even got some affordable 3-way options like the Kali IN-8v2 and if those still won't cut it, the 10" KRK Rokit RP10-3 G4 (which is basically a knockoff of some rather expensive Focals) should provide even greater levels.

Using some of these may mean some additional expenses, although those are relatively small in comparison (maybe an audio interface like a Focusrite Scarlett Solo/2i2 or Arturia Minifuse 1/2 and some XLR cables).

 

[manu3l]

It's a cheap Logitech 2.1 system, so that's hardly a major surprise.

Oh yeah we lived in an apartment and it got us by. Now in a house, its different. Still we have windows opened at night. (I'm a windsurfing athlete living in the Dominican Republic - http://windsurfing.lepicture.com/). So we're looking for more details and solid bass at low to mid volume.

How big a room and what listening distance are we talking? What's the Logitech plugged into? What sort of budget is there?

Coming off a windows laptop running EQAPO Sitting distance is 12', room is very wide 24' ? Ceiling very high 20'+. Sitting area is covered by a mezzanine wall at 8'.

8" class monitors tend to make it to around 40 Hz quite regularly, so that's what I'd be looking at. You've even got some affordable 3-way options like the Kali IN-8v2 and if those still won't cut it, the 10" KRK Rokit RP10-3 G4 (which is basically a knockoff of some rather expensive Focals) should provide even greater levels.

Thank you. You think I need to go over 6.5 even if I'm only playing around 50-60dB? I measured briefly my max listening volume. They all seem to go to 40 without issues.

The Z313 wider is only 4"! I imagine 2 x 6.5" should fill the room much better.

I had a Technics receiver with 2 3-way Yamaha speakers back in the day and it was crazy good. Never used a sub even in any of my cars and there was always plenty of bass to my liking.

 

[Fredygump]

I am looking at jbl, Kali and edifier sm's yes. Do their bass drop off suddenly or are they still usable in a ht environment?

I'm currently using a Logitech Z313, and equalized it seems to do well until 40hz. It's just that it doesn't fill my big room and has a tinny sound throughout.

EDIT: In regards of dropping the mids and highs via EQ, it does lower the -3 dB levels by effectively raising the bass.

Sorry, but I'm a little confused about what you want. If you turn down the mids, you end up with the classic "smiley face" EQ. This makes the bass louder in relation to the mids, but it doesn't give you lower bass. I hope that makes sense. It may help you hear the bass more readily, but it doesn't make the speaker produce lower frequencies.

Most people on this site are going to prefer a more "flat" frequency response. The flat response is what the connoiseur of audio is looking for, and it is also described as "accurate".

However, I have a speaker for you! Jamo.

I suggest it based on reviews I've seen. The Youtube channel Erin's Audio Corner reviewed a couple Jamo speakers, and boosted bass seems to be their signature. Erin didn't like them, and he has all the data that shows exactly what these speakers are about. You can check it out here:

Don't pe put off by Erin saying he doesn't like them. They don't suit his taste, but they may be exactly what you are looking for.

 

[manu3l]

Sorry, but I'm a little confused about what you want. If you turn down the mids, you end up with the classic "smiley face" EQ. This makes the bass louder in relation to the mids, but it doesn't give you lower bass. I hope that makes sense. It may help you hear the bass more readily, but it doesn't make the speaker produce lower frequencies.

Right. The Jamo is perfect example of that. The bass is boosted yet it falls off rapidly at 70 and it won't go much lower than that no matter how much we lower the mid and highs.

It's more relevant to speakers that have a softer drop off going down the lows.

However, I have a speaker for you! Jamo.
[...]
Don't pe put off by Erin saying he doesn't like them. They don't suit his taste, but they may be exactly what you are looking for.

Yes similarly to the neumi. But they can have funny curves and afraid that they get muddy when watching action scenes. With the z313 we often miss actors' lines because it gets all drowned with the noise. Either too bassy or the mids get swallowed when the bass is overloaded.

That's why I was leaning towards JBL or Kali monitors that I could EQ to my liking and still have great flat response around the mids giving me all the details possible.

Oh and passive speakers + amp get me into active speakers range price wise.

Budget is dependent on value certainly looking for something average but that can still fill our room.

I understand today's philosophy is to get medium size speakers coupled with a sub. Logical both budget and real estate wise. It's just a bit problematic when shipping here and would double the budget for something that's not necessary to us.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Sitting distance is 12', room is very wide 24' ? Ceiling very high 20'+

Boy, you weren't kidding about the room being big. While it appears your level needs aren't too excessive, you'll have a massive problem keeping diffuse room sound at bay with any normal-sized loudspeaker.... things are likely to end up being rather dark and muddy sounding. Rule of thumb, if your speakers are postage stamp sized from the listening position they're probably too small. You can easily spend 10 grand or more on the kind of Big Iron appropriate for such conditions. I would say 12" class minimum (or 2x 8-10"), something that looks more like a PA speaker, with fairly tight directivity. You'll be paying for substantially more level handling than you need, but big speakers that don't necessarily need to get all that loud are a bit of a unique niche.

Now if you would be willing to compromise and establish a new, substantially closer listening position for critical listening (say 6-8') as opposed to general entertainment, then that should make things a lot easier and less expensive.

 

[manu3l]

if your speakers are postage stamp sized from the listening position they're probably too small. You can easily spend 10 grand or more on the kind of Big Iron appropriate for such conditions. I would say 12" class minimum (or 2x 8-10"),

So the big Sony's aren't a bad idea after all!

Now if you would be willing to compromise and establish a new, substantially closer listening position for critical listening (say 6-8') as opposed to general entertainment, then that should make things a lot easier and less expensive.

When I'm at my desk I'm pretty close!

We project the movies on the wall above 8' which gives me a screen size of... 250" diagonal !

Anyway, the Z313 isn't that bad but in a similar room (12*24) but with lower ceiling 9-10' it sounded pretty much the same.

I could go with 6.5s and get a sub later if truly needed in case it sounds like I just have tweeters and the bass is muddy. It's all concrete, we have a big couch over a rug and a couple of wooden pieces of furniture.

 

[Fredygump]

Right. The Jamo is perfect example of that. The bass is boosted yet it falls off rapidly at 70 and it won't go much lower than that no matter how much we lower the mid and highs.

It's more relevant to speakers that have a softer drop off going down the lows.


Yes similarly to the neumi. But they can have funny curves and afraid that they get muddy when watching action scenes. With the z313 we often miss actors' lines because it gets all drowned with the noise. Either too bassy or the mids get swallowed when the bass is overloaded.

That's why I was leaning towards JBL or Kali monitors that I could EQ to my liking and still have great flat response around the mids giving me all the details possible.

Oh and passive speakers + amp get me into active speakers range price wise.

Budget is dependent on value certainly looking for something average but that can still fill our room.

I understand today's philosophy is to get medium size speakers coupled with a sub. Logical both budget and real estate wise. It's just a bit problematic when shipping here and would double the budget for something that's not necessary to us.

If those Sony speakers in the picture are available to you, then buy them before someone else does!

I feel that you are struggling because you want small speakers to do something they cannot do.

The steep roll off at low frequencies is the result of the speakers being ported. And all small speakers with any kind of bass are ported. Pretty much every modern speaker is ported. (passive radiators works the same as a port, so those are included). Some small ported speakers can play down to 40 or 50hz, but they have an 8" driver and are a bit larger.

You seem to be describing the behavior of a sealed cabinet. Sealed will have a shallower roll off. But to get down to 50hz, it will be a big woofer in a big enclosure. And it will be down a few dB by 50hz.

I was recently searching for a 12" woofer that could play down to 45hz in a small sealed enclosre (small for a 12" woofer). There were not many choices! I ended up with a beefy subwoofer driver that individually costs as much as a pair of bookshelf speakers!

 

[manu3l]

Hello again, wanted to share my latest thoughts.

I've decided to go the modern active route. Mostly because of availability (and part availability), added possible maintenance cost, size of vintage gear and extra amp needed. Got some more information out of this thread too: https://www.reddit.com/r/BudgetAudiophile/comments/a78e4n/_/ec1kbmi
These few caught my interest:
- Kali LP8
- JP 308
- Adam t8v
- KRK Rokit 8
- PreSonus E8

After randomly playing with REW and EQAPO, I was able to dial out bad bass which would muddy up mids or create resonance down low. I've also listened to movie trailer as well as dedicated bass tests with both my headphones and my Z313 system.

Result is quite impressive, I can now understand actors during movies ! When testing 10-50hz, 20hz is very light but 30 on I can hear. There's rumble when there's supposed to be etc. It's just not very pronounced or deep.

When comparing the frequency response curve of the Z313 to the aforementioned speakers, I can see that the curves drop down quite abruptly on any speaker vs the Logitech seem to put a better fight, heck it shows higher at 30Hz and than the Adam's?!

Three questions:

1. Can we hear 20-30hz out of any of the 8" candidates even at a lower volume and meaning that I won't actually lose any bass?
2. Would the 6" versions be sufficient for casual movie watching (no sub).
3. Should I consider 5"-ers with sub instead (although finding a budget 20-40hz sub seems involved!)

PS: I read that the Dayton Sub800 is a nice sub for its size but when checking frequency response it'd rated 40hz+ ?!?

I used these nice vids / sound tests:

 

[manu3l]

Hi audio folks, ended up getting the Sterling Audio MX8 8" studio monitors by Guitar Center.
Been great so far. Spending some time EQ-ing and testing them to figure out what I like for movies, music, sports or whatever.

And my own answers:

1. Can we hear 20-30hz out of any of the 8" candidates even at a lower volume and meaning that I won't actually lose any bass?

Impossible to hear anything below 35Hz or so from regular 8" speakers.

2. Would the 6" versions be sufficient for casual movie watching (no sub).

They can but won't shake up as much as bigger units. 45hz is still a pretty high note (for a bass note).
Maybe for a small room.

3. Should I consider 5"-ers with sub instead (although finding a budget 20-40hz sub seems involved!)

That would definitely work, they will save space on a desk but would still need a sub for at least the 35-55hz range (plenty of affordable units here).

So one can go without a sub with 8" speakers, they do take up a bunch of room and since the tweeters need to be at ear level, it can be an issue when looking for something stealthy while subs can be hidden below desks or whatever.
If one does need a sub to complement bigger speakers the Klipsch Reference R-10SW has one of the best low end out of budget subs.

I got both monitor for $200 shipped and it's probably the biggest bang for the buck in terms of audio quality and bass response.
Bass is audible and loud right until 35hz, nothing below. It'll rattle the windows when playing loud, no issues.

I wanted to get Adam Audio T8V's but had a really hard time finding them for a decent price sadly so I gave up and maybe it was a good thing!