Dirac Live Bass Control coming to Dirac Live Stereo This YEAR!!

[juliangst]

Hi there.

Some updates from my end. For office system...

TL;TR; incredible improvement for my office system

1. Low end much better controlled, less edginess and resonances, room gain gone... very very focused and tight...
2. Mains do better job in upper bass and lower midrange, after reducing bass output (Bass Control basically is an Active Cross Over to mains as well), so THD do not leak from lows to upper bass and lower midrange... I can catch difference by ear.
3. Phase is controlled better - leads to as well to cleaner/smoother transition from sub to mains ( I do not hear sub as sub at all... it's like mains are playing...) and better phase control leads to smoother bass across sub frequencies... I will check BC: Complete next week, for now it is only Upmix


System:

AMP: Aiyima A07 with changed OpAmp/updated power (about CD quality SINAD)
Sony SSCS5 (quite good with EQ for table system)
Sub: SVS SB1000PRO (fine 300W sub)
Virtual Multichannel DAC: Hidizs S9Pro + Apple Dongle USB C (SINAD about -110DB for both)

1. Requested via Support access for Bass Control (a couple weeks ago), Installed beta and activated Dirac Live Processor with my account, where Bass Control became available (see instruction below)
2. Measured only today, had to travel for a couple weeks. No problem with Dirac Live Suite, works as expected. Figured out Cross Over, Phase, impulse response, Target Curve etc...
3. I used virtual multichannel DAC for now only with one sub (I have spare second sub, will measure probably with 2 subs next week). I'm using Loopback app for Mac OS, with two different DAC (Hidizs S9Pro for mains and Apple Dongle USB C for Sub, cheap and clean, left overs from headphones...). In loopback I create 4 channels in Pass-Thru device, create Channels 1 2 3 4 for output and route these to monitors, with target DACs (for now for one sub I use only one channel, which I understand is mono that will be passed by Dirac Live Processor)

View attachment 249183

Then I selected Custom Channel Setup in Dirac Live Processor


View attachment 249185

Then I add Sub and select Channel 3 as Sub Output (next week will add second sub)

View attachment 249184


And we ready to calibrate...

These are some results, which are not to shabby...

After measurements, I exported filter and got 3 channels in Processor displaying in level meter, and Loopback demonstrated 3 channel working...

One issue that I faced, I could not use Bass Control Complete, only UpMix... probably requires two sub at least? will check it later.

View attachment 249186


p.s. Will post on 2 Subs update later.
p.p.s. Managed to enable BC: Complete.

At what point do you control volume in that setup? Just the general volume slider in MacOS?

 

[AudioKC]

The old channel measurement was 2 channels AND a Subwoofer with NO available DLBC. Do I need to run a new sweep if DLBC feature is made available?

Yes. It requires new measurements, it does one for sub as well.

 

[AudioKC]

At what point do you control volume in that setup? Just the general volume slider in MacOS?

Yes. MacOS volume.

Dirac levels up sub and mains output.

 

[juliangst]

Do you have to adjust anything on the subs or can you just leave them on 0dB and 0 degree and Dirac does the rest?

 

[AudioKC]

Do you have to adjust anything on the subs or can you just leave them on 0dB and 0 degree and Dirac does the rest?

It is part of dirac live manual, to disable crossover or move it to max, to set sub at 0db and phase to 0.

The rest, is to set up volume in dirac live for measurement (I do it at about -20db per my mic/dirac suite)

After that you control mac master volume to change volume of speakers and sub.

It’s not a magic, Dirac Processor is an output device, and whatever volume passed to it, it will pass to channels and then Loopback maps channels to DACs (see screenshots).

 

[AudioKC]

Hi there.

Some updates from my end. For office system...

TL;TR; incredible improvement for my office system

1. Low end much better controlled, less edginess and resonances, room gain gone... very very focused and tight...
2. Mains do better job in upper bass and lower midrange, after reducing bass output (Bass Control basically is an Active Cross Over to mains as well), so THD do not leak from lows to upper bass and lower midrange... I can catch difference by ear.
3. Phase is controlled better - leads to as well to cleaner/smoother transition from sub to mains ( I do not hear sub as sub at all... it's like mains are playing...) and better phase control leads to smoother bass across sub frequencies... I will check BC: Complete next week, for now it is only Upmix


System:

AMP: Aiyima A07 with changed OpAmp/updated power (about CD quality SINAD)
Sony SSCS5 (quite good with EQ for table system)
Sub: SVS SB1000PRO (fine 300W sub)
Virtual Multichannel DAC: Hidizs S9Pro + Apple Dongle USB C (SINAD about -110DB for both)

1. Requested via Support access for Bass Control (a couple weeks ago), Installed beta and activated Dirac Live Processor with my account, where Bass Control became available (see instruction below)
2. Measured only today, had to travel for a couple weeks. No problem with Dirac Live Suite, works as expected. Figured out Cross Over, Phase, impulse response, Target Curve etc...
3. I used virtual multichannel DAC for now only with one sub (I have spare second sub, will measure probably with 2 subs next week). I'm using Loopback app for Mac OS, with two different DAC (Hidizs S9Pro for mains and Apple Dongle USB C for Sub, cheap and clean, left overs from headphones...). In loopback I create 4 channels in Pass-Thru device, create Channels 1 2 3 4 for output and route these to monitors, with target DACs (for now for one sub I use only one channel, which I understand is mono that will be passed by Dirac Live Processor)

View attachment 249183

Then I selected Custom Channel Setup in Dirac Live Processor


View attachment 249185

Then I add Sub and select Channel 3 as Sub Output (next week will add second sub)

View attachment 249184


And we ready to calibrate...

These are some results, which are not to shabby...

After measurements, I exported filter and got 3 channels in Processor displaying in level meter, and Loopback demonstrated 3 channel working...

One issue that I faced, I could not use Bass Control Complete, only UpMix... probably requires two sub at least? will check it later.

View attachment 249186


p.s. Will post on 2 Subs update later.
p.p.s. Managed to enable BC: Complete.

OK, some updates.

1. I recommend to experiment with crossover, I moved it eventually from 88 to 95hz (just "ear" preference, mains merged even better with sub)
2. Also recommend to play with sub target curve manually... for even linear response (tested again by "ear" on well known bass heavy songs)
3. Measure sub with higher levels, I will redo measurements with 2 subs and with higher levels, it will be easy for sub, less you need to correct it, less unintended consequences in sound you will encounter. Rule of thumb, it is easy to lower loudness of some frequency, then to increase volume for the same frequency.

Imaging for my system is insane now... center picture has a depth and some sounds "pop out" from stage. and it is a office table system... incredible.

 

[juliangst]

I‘m thinking of building a pair of 10“ Dayton reference subs in the future.

I would run them full range and let Dirac bass control do all the EQ and low pass filtering.
Would this work well or should the subs be EQed externally for best results (with EQ apo for example)?

 

[Head_Unit]

It's a good time to be an audiophile, since consumers are finally getting the features that we want from manufacturers (case in point, Denon X3800H with 4 independent subwoofer outs, MiniDSP Flex, multichannel DACs, etc).

Well almost...I think a few of us are still waiting for that magic unit that will let us do DSP crossovers for multichannel* however that market is probably too small.
- The 3800 can actually correct those 4 subs independently? It has a special Audyssey? Or does that one have Dirac now?

*caveat: without integrating a bunch of boxes and a PC a la @Kal Rubinson and others. Between a tooth problem and HVAC issues and getting my house insulated oof I'm not gonna get into all that. Just getting my dream medium-horn towers designed and built is enough!

 

[Doodski]

dream medium-horn towers designed and built is enough!

Yeah... Go for it. I ran horns for several years and I loved them. Very tight snappy horny sound. Snare drums and actual horn musical instruments sound fantastic!

 

[dlaloum]

Question for those of you trying out Dirac Live with Bass Control.... (the new Beta software)

How is this "mixing" the bass between full range speakers and subs?

Are the subs being kept to the LFE channel - or are they also helping with the main signals?

And vice versa with the other speakers - is LFE being mixed in with / leveraging non Sub speakers, or are they being kept for the main Signal?

 

[Livewire]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but will devices like miniDSP Flex support this?

 

[Deleted member 48726]

The thing that makes spatial correction special is its ability to correct frequencies *above* the subwoofer range where there is more than 1 channel of summed content. This is about using speakers to cancel reflections in the very-difficult-to-fix 100-500hz range, it's not about adding speakers to your subs to improve the low bass.

The reason it's a big deal is that, if it actually works, it will provide a real alternative to room treatment in terms of controlling reflections. Right now, EQ can't directly help you with reflections, only absorption and changing speaker placement can. It also provides a direct benefit in sound quality from having more speakers -- with spatial room correction, your surround/height speakers make your stereo system sound better even if they're not being used for multichannel content.

The big "?" is really how well it works when the speakers are playing content, because using them for both reflection canceling and to play content at the same time seems non-trivial to say the least.

Isn't it "just" noise cancelling? If so it's been done for many years in the headphones.

 

[dlaloum]

Isn't it "just" noise cancelling? If so it's been done for many years in the headphones.

Sure, but it's a heck of a lot harder in an uncontrolled environment (AKA listening room) - where the size, direction, timing of the reflections is unknown...

It moves from a one dimensional analysis/response problem to a 3 dimensional one... which is several orders of magnitude more complicated, and requires several orders of magnitude more processing power.

Questions of interest:

• How much of its benefit is available in a 5 speaker setup
• How much of its benefit is available in a 7 speaker setup
• How much of its benefit is available in a 9 speaker setup
• How much of its benefit is available in a 11 speaker setup
• How much does it further improve with full range speakers?
• Do the benefits of full range speakers acrue only on the base layer, or on all layers?
• How much of the speakers dynamic capacity will the cancellation process use up?
• Are speakers with specific capabilities or design parameters an advantage or disadvantage?
  • Will this work best with highly directional speakers or omnis, or somewhere in between?
• Optmising an SRC setup might be quite different to optimising current HT setups!
  • Base layer all full range might be advantageous
  • If the base layer is all full range, are subs really needed?
  • What frequency response on the heights would best suit SRC? (any benefit to heights with bass down to 60Hz/50Hz/40Hz? are what SPL's?)

Yep this will be interesting.

 

[AudioKC]

I‘m thinking of building a pair of 10“ Dayton reference subs in the future.

I would run them full range and let Dirac bass control do all the EQ and low pass filtering.
Would this work well or should the subs be EQed externally for best results (with EQ apo for example)?

In my opinion it is a good idea to experiment with dirac live bass control in that way.

It will control phase, EQ, and crossover point of both subs and mains.

 

[AudioKC]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but will devices like miniDSP Flex support this?

Dirac Live Bass Control for PC/MAC (not released yet) requires multichannel DAC to work

At least two channels for mains and one channel for sub.

Not sure about plans to release it for minidsp devices family

 

[AudioKC]

Question for those of you trying out Dirac Live with Bass Control.... (the new Beta software)

How is this "mixing" the bass between full range speakers and subs?

Are the subs being kept to the LFE channel - or are they also helping with the main signals?

And vice versa with the other speakers - is LFE being mixed in with / leveraging non Sub speakers, or are they being kept for the main Signal?

You can find more details here

A bit outdated manual, but you’ll find answers here

diracdocs.com

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Sure, but it's a heck of a lot harder in an uncontrolled environment (AKA listening room) - where the size, direction, timing of the reflections is unknown...

It moves from a one dimensional analysis/response problem to a 3 dimensional one... which is several orders of magnitude more complicated, and requires several orders of magnitude more processing power.

Questions of interest:

• How much of its benefit is available in a 5 speaker setup
• How much of its benefit is available in a 7 speaker setup
• How much of its benefit is available in a 9 speaker setup
• How much of its benefit is available in a 11 speaker setup
• How much does it further improve with full range speakers?
• Do the benefits of full range speakers acrue only on the base layer, or on all layers?
• How much of the speakers dynamic capacity will the cancellation process use up?
• Are speakers with specific capabilities or design parameters an advantage or disadvantage?
  • Will this work best with highly directional speakers or omnis, or somewhere in between?
• Optmising an SRC setup might be quite different to optimising current HT setups!
  • Base layer all full range might be advantageous
  • If the base layer is all full range, are subs really needed?
  • What frequency response on the heights would best suit SRC? (any benefit to heights with bass down to 60Hz/50Hz/40Hz? are what SPL's?)

Yep this will be interesting.

Whether or not it's unknown may not necessarily mean the world. I mean isn't every ear unknown as well? isn't it also three-dimensional? I don't see how one can call IEM for one-dimensional. I would argue that it's the same problem but a physically smaller room than a living room.

 

[regan]

TL;TR; incredible improvement for my office system

Were you already using Dirac Live before adding Dirac Bass Control?

 

[AudioKC]

Were you already using Dirac Live before adding Dirac Bass Control?

Yes.

In 2 channel setup Sony speakers been pushed in some low frequencies to much by dirac (dirac tried to push sub but it was only 2 channels so it pushed mains as well). The low freq distortion leaked to upper bass and lower midrange-> it lead to worse imaging.

Now given crossover and two subs (I have a wierd feeling that subs with correct phase helping imaging as well) imaging is impressive . And it is not only 2D (up down left right) it’s kind of 3D.

My main system with one sub with dirac live (no bass control). I can feel how that sub move the scene to the left a bit (sub location is near left speaker).

Will add second sub later to that main system (first will add multichannel DAC to enable DLBC and crossover my Revel M105 with sub, to reduce distortion in low frequencies)

 

[PlateMail]

Any multichannel DAC recommendations for DLBC? I have a Motu 4, but that doesn't work as it presents itself as 2 different devices in Windows (It might work using ASIO).

I tried using HDMI out to my AVR, but couldn't get exclusive mode to work. Without exclusive mode the Windows mixer always seem to be sending something to the subwoofer even though all speakers are set to full range in Windows. I verified this in the Dirac Live volume test and the subwoofer got a signal for the left and right speaker test.

Update:
This might work using ASIO. I never got ASIO to work in Dirac Live as the application would crash everytime I chose ASIO as device type in the audio settings dialog. But I uninstalled ASIO4ALL and suddenly I can choose ASIO and MOTU M Series displays 4 available channels. I think Dirac Live Processor is incompatible with the latest version of ASIO4ALL.