Dirac ART Stereo issues on Denon & Marantz Devices

[JRowland]

2ch playback also messes up with Audyssey calibration. If it's set to manual, even when it has the correct settings, it will force a different crossover than is set and some other glitches I can't remember now. It's best to always leave it at auto.

There have been some issues reported (it has been awhile) about directional bass being enabled in the Denon settings before running ART and issues from that internal setting as well..

 

[FANTAS0822]

My display (Denon x4800h) only shows the front L/R and sub1 but all my speakers are active during 2 channel. Did you ask the poster if he actually put his ear up to the drivers or touched them by chance?

eta: I see someone did ask him and he confirmed the drivers are active. Seems the poster is getting hung up on what the display shows on his AVR.

Thanks for checking this. Just to clarify, I am not concluding that the surround and height speakers are inactive simply because their indicators are not shown on the AVR’s front-panel display.

I have since checked by putting my ear close to the drivers, and I can confirm that the speakers assigned as ART support speakers are producing low-frequency support output during native Stereo playback. So I agree that the front-panel display does not necessarily indicate every speaker being used internally by ART.

My reference to the display was only part of my initial suspicion about a possible difference between the native Stereo signal path and the ART support path. The actual issue is not whether the support speakers are active—they definitely are.

The repeatable problem on my X6800H is that whenever I assign any centre, surround, or height speaker to support the front L/R channels, the 85 Hz room resonance returns and ART appears to lose control. If I remove all non-subwoofer support speakers and leave only the subwoofers supporting the front L/R channels, the resonance disappears and ART works correctly again.

With a multichannel upmixer enabled, I can use those same support speakers without experiencing the problem. So I am not objecting to ART using the other speakers during Stereo playback; that is expected ART behaviour. I am only trying to understand why their support causes the correction to fail specifically in native Stereo mode on my X6800H.

 

[EWL5]

Thanks for checking this. Just to clarify, I am not concluding that the surround and height speakers are inactive simply because their indicators are not shown on the AVR’s front-panel display.

I have since checked by putting my ear close to the drivers, and I can confirm that the speakers assigned as ART support speakers are producing low-frequency support output during native Stereo playback. So I agree that the front-panel display does not necessarily indicate every speaker being used internally by ART.

My reference to the display was only part of my initial suspicion about a possible difference between the native Stereo signal path and the ART support path. The actual issue is not whether the support speakers are active—they definitely are.

The repeatable problem on my X6800H is that whenever I assign any centre, surround, or height speaker to support the front L/R channels, the 85 Hz room resonance returns and ART appears to lose control. If I remove all non-subwoofer support speakers and leave only the subwoofers supporting the front L/R channels, the resonance disappears and ART works correctly again.

With a multichannel upmixer enabled, I can use those same support speakers without experiencing the problem. So I am not objecting to ART using the other speakers during Stereo playback; that is expected ART behaviour. I am only trying to understand why their support causes the correction to fail specifically in native Stereo mode on my X6800H.

I think there was a recent Denon firmware update that finally got rid of the channel level tweakability post-ART calibration. Folks over at AVS are up in arms over it but I think it's for the best to address possible problems such as yours.

Are you on the most recent firmware update?
Edit: There's a chance the update I'm talking about hasn't quite reached the 6800 yet as the thread was mostly dealing w/the 3800/4800.

 

[FANTAS0822]

I think there was a recent Denon firmware update that finally got rid of the channel level tweakability post-ART calibration. Folks over at AVS are up in arms over it but I think it's for the best to address possible problems such as yours.

Are you on the most recent firmware update?
Edit: There's a chance the update I'm talking about hasn't quite reached the 6800 yet as the thread was mostly dealing w/the 3800/4800.

I haven’t updated yet. My X6800H is still running the firmware version immediately before the latest release.

I’ll update it to the newest firmware and test again to see whether it makes any difference to the ART behaviour in native Stereo mode. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[JRowland]

Thanks for checking this. Just to clarify, I am not concluding that the surround and height speakers are inactive simply because their indicators are not shown on the AVR’s front-panel display.

I understand and to be clear I accidently posted my query in the wrong thread. I saw a post in another thread about a bug and ART not using the other speakers in stereo mode (just subs and mains). I don't have that "bug" so I was trying to see if it was common and meant to put the post in the main Dirac ART thread. I'm glad it (the "bug") was just a misunderstanding. It stinks you are having a problem and I hope you get it figured out.

 

[Dj7675]

I haven’t updated yet. My X6800H is still running the firmware version immediately before the latest release.

I’ll update it to the newest firmware and test again to see whether it makes any difference to the ART behaviour in native Stereo mode. Thanks for the suggestion.

I would assume Denon would follow the same as the AV10 path on this…. Latest update removed the channel level adjustments via the options menu. It is not “for the best”. Blind faith that a microphone/pc is going to get levels perfect in a circumstance is total fantasy. It sounds ok without channel level adjustments in my 9.4.5 system but envelopment is better in my opinion with being able to tweak channel levels in my room/system. Or a typical use would be a poorly recorded dialogue mix in a movie.. being able to simply bump the level up a dB or 2 on the center is really necessary.
And both Storm Audio and HTP1 can do this. And this was one of my must haves when I purchased the AV10 and now removed without warning.

 

[EWL5]

I would assume Denon would follow the same as the AV10 path on this…. Latest update removed the channel level adjustments via the options menu. It is not “for the best”. Blind faith that a microphone/pc is going to get levels perfect in a circumstance is total fantasy. It sounds ok without channel level adjustments in my 9.4.5 system but envelopment is better in my opinion with being able to tweak channel levels in my room/system. Or a typical use would be a poorly recorded dialogue mix in a movie.. being able to simply bump the level up a dB or 2 on the center is really necessary.
And both Storm Audio and HTP1 can do this. And this was one of my must haves when I purchased the AV10 and now removed without warning.

Unless I'm misinterpreting this post, I believe the HTP1 is similarly non-adjustable post-calibration:

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64732282/

Perhaps @TimoJ can confirm here as well?

I still stand by the belief that StormAudio stands alone for maximum ART flexibility post-calibration...

 

[90sNintendoKid]

Unless I'm misinterpreting this post, I believe the HTP1 is similarly non-adjustable post-calibration:

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64732282/

Perhaps @TimoJ can confirm here as well?

I still stand by the belief that StormAudio stands alone for maximum ART flexibility post-calibration...

I would also add Dirac for PC and Mac. This is the router I am going, AVR pre outs into 2 Behringer ADA8200s into a RME Digiface USB.

 

[EWL5]

I would also add Dirac for PC and Mac. This is the router I am going, AVR pre outs into 2 Behringer ADA8200s into a RME Digiface USB.

Ah, yes. It's about $100 more expensive for the bundle vs for my 3800 but you can install it on any PC/Mac so the license isn't tied down to any one device!

 

[90sNintendoKid]

Ah, yes. It's about $100 more expensive for the bundle vs for my 3800 but you can install it on any PC/Mac so the license isn't tied down to any one device!

If I had to do it again, I would have gone the PC route. I have a 3800H and the fact the license is tied to the AVR and I’m stuffed if it breaks irks me.

 

[Dj7675]

Unless I'm misinterpreting this post, I believe the HTP1 is similarly non-adjustable post-calibration:

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/64732282/

Perhaps @TimoJ can confirm here as well?

I still stand by the belief that StormAudio stands alone for maximum ART flexibility post-calibration...

In that thread he said the following:
“Output levels and delays are locked. But there are Channel Level trimmers that are located after decoder and before Dirac DSP section:”

 

[EWL5]

In that thread he said the following:
“Output levels and delays are locked. But there are Channel Level trimmers that are located after decoder and before Dirac DSP section:”

So how does "before Dirac DSP section" help? Is that same as post-calibration to you?

 

[airs]

Seems as though something is off with ART in my system as well. x4800h, 2x HSU ULS15mk2, SB3000, SB3000 Revolution, F208's for mains.

 

[livinon2wheels]

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. I couldn’t find a dedicated thread on this behaviour.

I’ve recently upgraded from a Marantz Cinema 50 to an AV20 + AMP20. Dirac ART behaves as expected with multichannel content and upmixing (Dolby Surround, DTS, Auro), however with 2-channel stereo playback, bass coherence collapses. This did not happen with ART on my Cinema 50, nor does it happen with my Denon x3800h running ART in another room.

The issue is track-dependent, but a good example is Eric Clapton – Behind The Mask. The bass sounds detached from the soundstage, hollow/inverted, and as if notes are being prematurely truncated. It appears to centre around the crossover region.

Key observations:

• Issue only occurs with ART enabled
• Does NOT occur with Dirac off or with DLBC
• Does NOT occur on Cinema 50 (same room/setup) or Denon X3800H (separate system)

System details:

• 3 subwoofers (2 front, 1 rear), time-aligned and level-matched
• ART topology: subs + LCR as primary bass engine, surrounds/heights provide limited support (−6 dB), Fsiso 150 Hz, support capped at 150 Hz
• No surround/height support into subs

Testing so far:

• Changing support topology, levels, and F-support ranges has no effect
• AVR bass settings (LFE+Main, crossovers, etc.) disabled/ignored as expected under Dirac
• Issue is reproducible only in 2-channel playback modes

Next step:

• REW measurements (L+R sweeps, subs vs full system, ART on/off) to identify behaviour in crossover region

Platform comparison:
This issue does NOT occur on:

• Cinema 50
• Denon X3800H

Both differ from AV20 in DSP/DAC platform.

Suspected shared platform devices:

1. AV10/20/30, Cinema 30, Denon A1H
2. Denon X6800H / A10H
3. Cinema 40/50, Denon X3800H / X4800H

Additional variables tested:

• DAC filter settings
• 2-channel playback modes

Question:
Has anyone else experienced this specifically with ART + stereo playback on these newer D&M platforms?

It would be useful to confirm whether this is:

• platform-specific DSP behaviour
• a Dirac ART bug
• or an interaction specific to stereo processing paths

Thanks

That is a disturbing problem, particularly since you pay extra for Dirac. I used the Audessey room correction with my Cinema 40 and found its correction to be pretty darn good. I have no doubt that Dirac would be better if it worked, but maybe going back to Audessey would be a short term solution till you can get Marantz Customer service to work out how to help you. Just a thought.