Dirac ART Stereo issues on Denon & Marantz Devices

[davidc]

My current suspicion is that this may be a bug in the interaction between ART’s support-speaker processing and the native Stereo signal path.

In Stereo mode, only the front left, front right, and subwoofer channels appear to be active on the AVR’s front-panel display. The centre, surround, rear-surround, and height channel indicators remain off. However, in Dirac Live’s ART implementation, it is possible to freely assign those speakers as support speakers for the front L/R channels.

This creates a possible mismatch: the Stereo playback path treats those channels as inactive, while ART may still be trying to use them to support and control the front L/R response. There may therefore be a conflict involving channel routing, muting, delay, gain, phase, or the way the support filters are applied to channels that are not otherwise active in native Stereo mode.

This would also explain why the issue does not occur when I play the same stereo music through a multichannel upmixer. In Dolby Surround, DTS Neural, or Auro mode, the centre, surround, and height channels become active, their indicators illuminate, and ART can use all of the configured support speakers without any obvious problem. I have not yet tested whether ART behaves correctly in native multichannel playback mode without upmixing, so I cannot draw any conclusions about that scenario at this stage.

The strongest evidence is that the issue is completely repeatable based on the support-speaker configuration:

• In native Stereo mode, with only the subwoofers supporting the front L/R channels, ART works correctly and the 85 Hz room resonance is controlled.
• If I add even one centre, surround, or height speaker as support for the front L/R channels, the resonance returns and ART appears to lose control.
• With a multichannel upmixer enabled, all of those support speakers can be used normally without producing the same problem.

The fact that the problem follows the support-speaker assignment so consistently makes me suspect a bug specifically in the way ART handles non-active channels as support speakers in the native Stereo playback path.

Can you hear the ART support through the height and surround channels when it sounds screwed up? You may have to put your ear to the speakers.

I haven't set up Dirac/ART with my 4800 yet, still using Audyssey. But this is the exact question I had as well. If you set up ART with all speakers enabled, like when you are watching a movie, it will, of course, use all the speakers for playback and support. But, if you listen to music with only the front speakers and sub, and the height and surround are turned off, I would assume that ART would have to change its settings since those speakers aren't playing anymore for support. But how would it know to do this, or at least, how could it do this if no separate calibration was done? So, would it make sense to use the two available ART settings, one for theater and one for stereo?

 

[BJL]

Can you hear the ART support through the height and surround channels when it sounds screwed up? You may have to put your ear to the speakers.

I haven't set up Dirac/ART with my 4800 yet, still using Audyssey. But this is the exact question I had as well. If you set up ART with all speakers enabled, like when you are watching a movie, it will, of course, use all the speakers for playback and support. But, if you listen to music with only the front speakers and sub, and the height and surround are turned off, I would assume that ART would have to change its settings since those speakers aren't playing anymore for support. But how would it know to do this, or at least, how could it do this if no separate calibration was done? So, would it make sense to use the two available ART settings, one for theater and one for stereo?

ART will use all available speakers regardless of whether the source is mono, stereo or Atmos or anything in between. There is absolutely no reason to create two sets of ART filters, one for stereo, one for multichannel. If your AVR/AVP is shutting off speakers, then it is not set up correctly for ART, or it is not truly compatible.

 

[SDC]

it is not truly compatible.

Sad but that's what we get using ART in Denon/Marantz.

This problem existed from day one, many members sent mails to Denon, but still no fix.

What users can do is set Auro-3d strength to 0 and use it for stereo playback.

In Windows enabling Dolby Atmos will also enable all channels. But you lose AVR's upmixing functions.

In Apple TV, turning on Contiuous Audio will do the same as Windows.

 

[FANTAS0822]

Can you hear the ART support through the height and surround channels when it sounds screwed up? You may have to put your ear to the speakers.

I haven't set up Dirac/ART with my 4800 yet, still using Audyssey. But this is the exact question I had as well. If you set up ART with all speakers enabled, like when you are watching a movie, it will, of course, use all the speakers for playback and support. But, if you listen to music with only the front speakers and sub, and the height and surround are turned off, I would assume that ART would have to change its settings since those speakers aren't playing anymore for support. But how would it know to do this, or at least, how could it do this if no separate calibration was done? So, would it make sense to use the two available ART settings, one for theater and one for stereo?

Yes. I checked this by placing my ear close to the assigned support speakers.

If I configure the front L/R channels to be supported by the subwoofers plus any surround or height speaker, I can hear a low-level support signal coming from the assigned speaker during native Stereo playback. The same is true if I remove the subwoofers from the support group and use only the centre speaker to support the front L/R channels.

In fact, this behaviour itself is not strange. ART is designed to use other speakers to provide low-frequency support even in Stereo mode, so hearing output from surround or height speakers is expected.

However, the issue is that ART does not work correctly in this situation on my X6800H. In native Stereo mode, the surround and height channel indicators on the AVR’s front-panel display remain off, even though those speakers are clearly still producing ART support output.

The problem is that this additional support causes ART to stop functioning properly. Whenever any non-subwoofer speaker is used as support for the front L/R channels, the 85 Hz room resonance returns and ART appears to lose control. If I remove all centre, surround, and height speakers from the support group and leave only the subwoofers supporting the front L/R channels, the resonance disappears and ART works normally again.

Regarding your question about using separate ART configurations for Stereo and multichannel playback, I would expect the processor to handle this automatically. The ART calibration already contains the measured acoustic relationships between all speakers and listening positions. In principle, it should therefore be able to apply the appropriate low-frequency support and cancellation for different content and playback modes without requiring separate calibrations.

Using the two available ART filter slots—one for theater use with all support speakers enabled and another for Stereo with only the subwoofers supporting the front L/R channels—might work as a practical workaround. I have not tested this yet, so I cannot confirm whether it solves the problem. However, having to maintain and manually switch between two different ART configurations for Stereo and multichannel playback would be far too cumbersome. Ideally, a single ART calibration should work correctly with Stereo, mono, native multichannel, and upmixed content.

 

[davidc]

ART will use all available speakers regardless of whether the source is mono, stereo or Atmos or anything in between. There is absolutely no reason to create two sets of ART filters, one for stereo, one for multichannel. If your AVR/AVP is shutting off speakers, then it is not set up correctly for ART, or it is not truly compatible.

So, to clarify, even when I set the AVR to stereo just for the L/R main speakers for music, ART will still use all speakers for the support?

 

[OCA]

2ch playback also messes up with Audyssey calibration. If it's set to manual, even when it has the correct settings, it will force a different crossover than is set and some other glitches I can't remember now. It's best to always leave it at auto.

 

[EWL5]

Sad but that's what we get using ART in Denon/Marantz.

This problem existed from day one, many members sent mails to Denon, but still no fix.

What users can do is set Auro-3d strength to 0 and use it for stereo playback.

In Windows enabling Dolby Atmos will also enable all channels. But you lose AVR's upmixing functions.

In Apple TV, turning on Contiuous Audio will do the same as Windows.

I'm not understanding the problem when it comes to playing a stereo signal in conjunction w/ART. There are at least 3 types of people in this world:

1) The stereo purist is only ever going to want 2 speakers playing and no processing. Conclusion: Dirac ART is not for you.

2) This person only wants the stereo speakers to provide support for each other. Yes, you can accomplish this with a separate filter but why would you? It's the audio equivalent of cutting off a foot to spite the nose! The support from "one other speaker" will be very limited and you would still be better off paying for real room treatments than ART!

3) This person that enjoys listening to stereo and doesn't mind the advantages of multiple speakers providing "support only" when listening to a stereo source. ART is still fully functional in this regard and will give the benefit (sometimes) of avoiding costly room treatments. Person #1 still has to shell out for room treatments and Person #2 may wish they had paid for room treatments!

I feel recent posts are of the person #1 and #2 variety. I say again, ART is not for you!

 

[BJL]

3) This person that enjoys listening to stereo and doesn't mind the advantages of multiple speakers providing "support only" when listening to a stereo source. ART is still fully functional in this regard and will give the benefit (sometimes) of avoiding costly room treatments. Person #1 still has to shell out for room treatments and Person #2 may wish they had paid for room treatments!

Great post. To which I add that ART works great for monaural sources as well, played through the center speaker, with your multiple speakers providing support only.

 

[anotherhobby]

Yeah, I don't understand why ART doing what it's designed to is a problem. I absolutely 100% want ART using every single available speaker in the room to smooth the modal response when I'm listening to stereo music! Yes, I like less modal ringing with faster and more even decay... I can't help it. The result is fantastic, and I am now re-designing my future 2-ch listening room, and I will be deploying a 7.4.4 system (max on my 4800H), and I'm designing built-in ART modules (surround speakers) with 8-10" drivers on every node except the mains just for the thing that's being complained about here. I don't get the complaints here at all.

 

[davidc]

I'm not understanding the problem when it comes to playing a stereo signal in conjunction w/ART. There are at least 3 types of people in this world:

1) The stereo purist is only ever going to want 2 speakers playing and no processing. Conclusion: Dirac ART is not for you.

2) This person only wants the stereo speakers to provide support for each other. Yes, you can accomplish this with a separate filter but why would you? It's the audio equivalent of cutting off a foot to spite the nose! The support from "one other speaker" will be very limited and you would still be better off paying for real room treatments than ART!

3) This person that enjoys listening to stereo and doesn't mind the advantages of multiple speakers providing "support only" when listening to a stereo source. ART is still fully functional in this regard and will give the benefit (sometimes) of avoiding costly room treatments. Person #1 still has to shell out for room treatments and Person #2 may wish they had paid for room treatments!

I feel recent posts are of the person #1 and #2 variety. I say again, ART is not for you!

I'm number 3

 

[RenPa]

3) This person that enjoys listening to stereo and doesn't mind the advantages of multiple speakers providing "support only" when listening to a stereo source. ART is still fully functional in this regard and will give the benefit (sometimes) of avoiding costly room treatments. Person #1 still has to shell out for room treatments and Person #2 may wish they had paid for room treatments!

I am number three. Surrounds and subs in stereo support fronts. But I set fronts not supporting surrounds in stereo, maybe useless but seemed logical to me!

 

[RenPa]

2ch playback also messes up with Audyssey calibration. If it's set to manual, even when it has the correct settings, it will force a different crossover than is set and some other glitches I can't remember now. It's best to always leave it at auto.

I discovered your youtube presentation of Gsonic immersive. I search to find if it is compatible with Dirac Art in Cinema 30. Not sure I found the right answer. Dirac bypasses all avr settings so I conclud that Gsonic immersive results are also bypassed with Art filter?

 

[OCA]

I discovered your youtube presentation of Gsonic immersive. I search to find if it is compatible with Dirac Art in Cinema 30. Not sure I found the right answer. Dirac bypasses all avr settings so I conclud that Gsonic immersive results are also bypassed with Art filter?

It's only a measurement tool and yes it can measure each of 9.1.6 over HDMI from a Windows PC independent of what processing is loaded in the AVR. You can use it to measure your ART results and/or measure your system before any calibration or filters.

 

[Elvom]

Same issue with x3800h, dirac art calibrated 5 speakers 4 subs setup using stereo as decoder destroys bass balance, i had to use preset 1 just for 2.4 and preset 2 for 5.4

 

[Derboy]

Just to reiterate, this seems to be heavily mic measurement dependent. Ive never had the issue reoccur after the last two mic sweeps. It might be worth redoing at your end to see if you can solve the problem.

 

[mmares056]

3) This person that enjoys listening to stereo and doesn't mind the advantages of multiple speakers providing "support only" when listening to a stereo source. ART is still fully functional in this regard and will give the benefit (sometimes) of avoiding costly room treatments. Person #1 still has to shell out for room treatments and Person #2 may wish they had paid for room treatments!

100% agreed. Denon X3800 user here. My ART calibration sounds great for both, movies and 2ch music in my 5.4.2 setup. Although I will admit that I have been listening to Atmos music more regularly as of late. But when listening to 2ch it sounds lovely. Imaging is superb and the soundstage is huge subjectively speaking. After experimenting with different mic position patterns, MLP focused and wide image, and different support levels I settled on a 12 mic pattern covering 3 seats, 50% weighted towards the center seat(MLP), and 40% weighted towards seats 2 and 3. I have everything supporting everything except my center. My center support nothing. My FL/FR support Subs -12 support level, Surround support subs -6, and Tops support subs -4. I use the same target curve below the transition region for all speakers and ART nails it. I don't need to switch presets. I use one preset for movies and music. Happy camper.

 

[mmares056]

Yeah, I don't understand why ART doing what it's designed to is a problem. I absolutely 100% want ART using every single available speaker in the room to smooth the modal response when I'm listening to stereo music! Yes, I like less modal ringing with faster and more even decay... I can't help it. The result is fantastic, and I am now re-designing my future 2-ch listening room, and I will be deploying a 7.4.4 system (max on my 4800H), and I'm designing built-in ART modules (surround speakers) with 8-10" drivers on every node except the mains just for the thing that's being complained about here. I don't get the complaints here at all.

I second that. This has also been my experience with ART.

 

[JRowland]

Is anyone here experiencing this "bug"? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...stage-spaciousness-imaging.72568/post-2647965

I listen to a lot of 2 channel music through various analog and digital sources and my surround speakers and center channel are active. I do not touch the drivers all the time but often enough just to make sure. The only time I have noticed the support speakers not being active was when I tried Ken's Apple TV Continuous Audio Correction on or off experiment and I (mistakenly - for the experiment anyway) ran a tone generator (corded) through my phone into the 4800 dac. I noticed the surrounds did not participate and noted that here, but other than that all my sources seem to be working with ART as expected so I was curious to learn about this "bug".

 

[OCA]

Is anyone here experiencing this "bug"? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...stage-spaciousness-imaging.72568/post-2647965

I listen to a lot of 2 channel music through various analog and digital sources and my surround speakers and center channel are active. I do not touch the drivers all the time but often enough just to make sure. The only time I have noticed the support speakers not being active was when I tried Ken's Apple TV Continuous Audio Correction on or off experiment and I (mistakenly - for the experiment anyway) ran a tone generator (corded) through my phone into the 4800 dac. I noticed the surrounds did not participate and noted that here, but other than that all my sources seem to be working with ART as expected so I was curious to learn about this "bug".

Dirac ART Stereo issues on Denon & Marantz Devices

Ive fixed it. I’ve been at it all night. Tried changing every variable in Dirac before deciding to scrap everything and start again. Adjusted speaker toe-in, re-levelled my subs so that they were only running a few db hotter than the mains and ran a new less focused mic sweep. I previously had...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[JRowland]

Dirac ART Stereo issues on Denon & Marantz Devices

Ive fixed it. I’ve been at it all night. Tried changing every variable in Dirac before deciding to scrap everything and start again. Adjusted speaker toe-in, re-levelled my subs so that they were only running a few db hotter than the mains and ran a new less focused mic sweep. I previously had...

www.audiosciencereview.com

My display (Denon x4800h) only shows the front L/R and sub1 but all my speakers are active during 2 channel. Did you ask the poster if he actually put his ear up to the drivers or touched them by chance?

eta: I see someone did ask him and he confirmed the drivers are active. Seems the poster is getting hung up on what the display shows on his AVR.