Dirac ART Stereo issues on Denon & Marantz Devices

[Derboy]

Ive fixed it.

I’ve been at it all night. Tried changing every variable in Dirac before deciding to scrap everything and start again. Adjusted speaker toe-in, re-levelled my subs so that they were only running a few db hotter than the mains and ran a new less focused mic sweep. I previously had a null at 120hz that was quite deep and I’m wondering if ART was reacting to that when BC wasn’t.

In any case the bass phenomenon in Stereo is gone. Perhaps other modes were masking it.

BUT - I’m using wider mic sweep. I’ll try going back to a more focused single seat one and see what the outcome is then.

 

[PGAMiami]

My 4800h in pre pro mode sounds great on stereo, no issues, best bass ever in my room. 5.4.2 setup

 

[Flak]

Is the sound mode set to multichannel?
If the sound mode is set to Multi Channel Stereo, Denon/Marantz apply specific bass management. This means that BC and ART will not work.

The AVR applies the levels, crossovers, and delay time calculated by Dirac Live for the playback.

For more information, please visit the following pages:

Denon
https://manuals.denon.com/DiracLive/NA/EN/DRDZSYktvnhzad.php

Marantz
https://manuals.marantz.com/DiracLive/ALL/EN/DRDZSYktvnhzad.php

 

[Derboy]

Is the sound mode set to multichannel?
If the sound mode is set to Multi Channel Stereo, Denon/Marantz apply specific bass management. This means that BC and ART will not work.

The AVR applies the levels, crossovers, and delay time calculated by Dirac Live for the playback.

For more information, please visit the following pages:

Denon
https://manuals.denon.com/DiracLive/NA/EN/DRDZSYktvnhzad.php

Marantz
https://manuals.marantz.com/DiracLive/ALL/EN/DRDZSYktvnhzad.php

No. Just normal stereo.

 

[Derboy]

Dirac have taken ages to come back and starting harping on about multi-channel stereo. I’ve reminded them that’s not what I was talking about and will now need to wait another 8 weeks for their next reply.

 

[Descartes]

Dirac have taken ages to come back and starting harping on about multi-channel stereo. I’ve reminded them that’s not what I was talking about and will now need to wait another 8 weeks for their next reply.

Sounds like horrible customer service! With all that it costs you would think they would have better customer support!

 

[Derboy]

Sounds like horrible customer service! With all that it costs you would think they would have better customer support!

Marantz cam back to me much sooner and asked for much of the same info as Dirac did when they finally came back to me. I've not had a resolution but the problem is gone. It seems vey much linked to the mic sweep pattern used but I haven't been able to deliberately repeat it. Ive run a few different sweeps, pretty much replicating what I did before. Sometimes the problem's there after a calibration and sometimes it isn't. In the end I'm all set-up and all is fine, but I couldn't tell you what the cause is or what the fix was.

 

[davidc]

Correct me if I'm wrong please. Let's say you are using ART on a Denon in a theater situation using say. 5.2. Then, you want to listen to 2ch stereo in a 2.2 configuation. Or, even 2.0) (lets say you have awesome L/R speakers that can reproduce bass very well). Wouldn't that require a completely different ART measurement and setup since you don't have the same number of speakers playing and supporting?

 

[Derboy]

Yes and no. You can have multi channel speaker set up with ART running and only listen to two channel music. The rest of the speakers will still support bass.

BUT

I do precisely this in my livingroom.

Denon x3800h with the FL and FR through a speaker switch.

Speaker preset 1 = all ceiling 5.1 set up and a Dirac ART set up to match.
Speaker preset 2 = bookshelf 2.1 setup and another Dirac Art set up to suit.

 

[EWL5]

Correct me if I'm wrong please. Let's say you are using ART on a Denon in a theater situation using say. 5.2. Then, you want to listen to 2ch stereo in a 2.2 configuation. Or, even 2.) (lets say you have awesome L/R speakers that can reproduce bass very well). Wouldn't that require a completely different ART measurement and setup since you don't have the same number of speakers playing and supporting?

The point is, a stereo source will still sound better when support speakers are active (why wouldn't you use the speakers you paid for?). As long as you don't purposefully upmix that stereo source (forcing sound into speakers not in the source track), you should still be maintaining the integrity of the stereo source while ART does its magic!

 

[Derboy]

Correct. Which is why I have all speakers running in my main set up when listening to stereo. But in my livingroom my ceiling speakers can’t provide meaningful support.

 

[BJL]

Correct me if I'm wrong please. Let's say you are using ART on a Denon in a theater situation using say. 5.2. Then, you want to listen to 2ch stereo in a 2.2 configuation. Or, even 2.0) (lets say you have awesome L/R speakers that can reproduce bass very well). Wouldn't that require a completely different ART measurement and setup since you don't have the same number of speakers playing and supporting?

No you do not need a different set of measurements or different set of ART filters. I have ART set up on a 9.1.6 system (not Denon, but that doesn't matter.) I use this single ART configuration for all audio formats, from mono to Atmos. More important is that you set the low frequency cut off for your speakers properly. I contacted the companies that manufactured my speakers to get the correct cut off frequency. Smaller speakers get a higher cut off. For example, in my case, the Atmos speakers (heights and wides) have a 60 Hz LF cut off, but the bed (ear level) speakers have a 40 Hz cut off, as they are more capable. You may also need to set the LF for the sub. 20 Hz is the ART default, but mine is set for 14 Hz.

More speakers are better and will give ART more to work with. When I play a monaural track, through one speaker, all 15 speakers plus sub get some signal, but it is entirely non-directional and non-identifiable. I just get better sound. Ditto for stereo (and all other configurations.)

 

[Hayabusa]

A bit different question: Marantz now has the 'directional' bass settings, how does this work with Dirac?

 

[CapMan]

I don't notice any issues on an X4800 using ART. It's a 5.2 system. I do not use the centre as a support speaker, only the two subs and mains. Bass is tight and clean in my rather too-small asymmetric room. Have Speak Like A Child LP on as I'm typing and Ron Carters bass sounds fine .

Sorry that you're having a nightmare with this.

 

[EWL5]

A bit different question: Marantz now has the 'directional' bass settings, how does this work with Dirac?

I don't believe it does. Directional bass setting will work with Audyssey room correction but not Dirac as it's handled differently and internally (especially when using ART). Don't forget that speaker settings are locked down after DLBM/DLBC and ART calibration so this makes it that much more obvious.

How should one think in the case of wanting to set up directional bass? | Dirac Live Active Room Treatment

helpdesk.dirac.com

 

[Derboy]

A bit different question: Marantz now has the 'directional' bass settings, how does this work with Dirac?

It doesn’t.

 

[FANTAS0822]

I appear to be experiencing the same, or at least a very similar, issue.

Whenever I play 2-channel music in Stereo mode with a Dirac ART filter enabled, a room resonance returns—in my room, it is a strong resonance at approximately 85 Hz. It effectively sounds as though ART is no longer controlling the room properly.

My processor is a Denon X6800H, with a fully amplified 7.2.4 speaker configuration. I previously had the same problem with a 7.1.4 configuration, before adding the second subwoofer, so the issue does not appear to be caused by the additional subwoofer.

After extensive testing, I found a workaround. In the ART support configuration for the front left and right speakers, I disabled all surround and height speakers as support sources, leaving only the subwoofers supporting the front L/R channels. With this configuration, the bass becomes tight again and ART appears to work normally when playing stereo music in Stereo mode.

However, as soon as I add any other speaker as a support source for the front L/R channels—even just one speaker, such as the centre channel—the ART correction seems to fail again, and the 85 Hz room resonance immediately returns.

I have also experienced a potentially related issue when playing music with a sample rate above 48 kHz, particularly 96 kHz and higher. This behavior only occurs when Dirac ART is enabled; when ART is turned off, everything works normally. In ART mode, the low-frequency output from the surround speakers gradually increases in level until it reaches an extremely loud peak, followed by a loud burst or pop and then complete silence. During this event, the subwoofers do not appear to be active; instead, the low-frequency output from the surround speakers seems to be increasing uncontrollably.

I am not sure whether the two issues are directly related, but both appear to involve the ART support-speaker processing path. This makes me wonder whether there may be a DSP, sample-rate conversion, or filter-processing issue on these newer D&M platforms.

 

[Derboy]

Another person on a different group told me that setting 2-channel music mode on his Marantz to Automatic (even if disabled) cured the problem for him:

the double bass issue ive resolved it!turns out in the settings>2ch playback, if you have that incorrectly setup it messes up ART for stereo playbakc..heres the catch... even though it gets greyed out when ART is enabled, the underlying settings remain!

i just went in and set the 2ch playback settings to auto flipped art on.... no double bass.. flipped it back to manual 2ch playback settings, ART on, double bass.solved!

 

[FANTAS0822]

Another person on a different group told me that setting 2-channel music mode on his Marantz to Automatic (even if disabled) cured the problem for him:

I had already experimented with this method before, and found that the underlying 2ch Playback settings still appear to affect ART even when the menu is greyed out.

For example, if I disable ART, go back into 2ch Playback, first set it to Manual and then disable the subwoofer, then enable ART again, the subwoofer indicator on the AVR’s front display turns off when playing stereo music in Stereo mode. The subwoofers do not operate at all, so ART naturally cannot work as intended.

However, even after changing 2ch Playback back to Auto and enabling ART again, I still experience the same ART failure in Stereo mode.

At the moment, the only reliable workaround I have found is to disable every speaker except the subwoofers as support speakers for the front left and right channels. With only the subwoofers supporting the front L/R speakers, ART works correctly in Stereo mode and the room resonance disappears.

If I enable even a single additional surround, centre, or height speaker as support for the front L/R channels, the problem returns. It seems as though those speakers may be providing too much or incorrect support in the crossover region, causing ART to lose control and the room resonance to reappear.

 

[FANTAS0822]

My current suspicion is that this may be a bug in the interaction between ART’s support-speaker processing and the native Stereo signal path.

In Stereo mode, only the front left, front right, and subwoofer channels appear to be active on the AVR’s front-panel display. The centre, surround, rear-surround, and height channel indicators remain off. However, in Dirac Live’s ART implementation, it is possible to freely assign those speakers as support speakers for the front L/R channels.

This creates a possible mismatch: the Stereo playback path treats those channels as inactive, while ART may still be trying to use them to support and control the front L/R response. There may therefore be a conflict involving channel routing, muting, delay, gain, phase, or the way the support filters are applied to channels that are not otherwise active in native Stereo mode.

This would also explain why the issue does not occur when I play the same stereo music through a multichannel upmixer. In Dolby Surround, DTS Neural, or Auro mode, the centre, surround, and height channels become active, their indicators illuminate, and ART can use all of the configured support speakers without any obvious problem. I have not yet tested whether ART behaves correctly in native multichannel playback mode without upmixing, so I cannot draw any conclusions about that scenario at this stage.

The strongest evidence is that the issue is completely repeatable based on the support-speaker configuration:

• In native Stereo mode, with only the subwoofers supporting the front L/R channels, ART works correctly and the 85 Hz room resonance is controlled.
• If I add even one centre, surround, or height speaker as support for the front L/R channels, the resonance returns and ART appears to lose control.
• With a multichannel upmixer enabled, all of those support speakers can be used normally without producing the same problem.

The fact that the problem follows the support-speaker assignment so consistently makes me suspect a bug specifically in the way ART handles non-active channels as support speakers in the native Stereo playback path.