Dirac ART Stereo issues on Denon & Marantz Devices

[Derboy]

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. I couldn’t find a dedicated thread on this behaviour.

I’ve recently upgraded from a Marantz Cinema 50 to an AV20 + AMP20. Dirac ART behaves as expected with multichannel content and upmixing (Dolby Surround, DTS, Auro), however with 2-channel stereo playback, bass coherence collapses. This did not happen with ART on my Cinema 50, nor does it happen with my Denon x3800h running ART in another room.

The issue is track-dependent, but a good example is Eric Clapton – Behind The Mask. The bass sounds detached from the soundstage, hollow/inverted, and as if notes are being prematurely truncated. It appears to centre around the crossover region.

Key observations:

• Issue only occurs with ART enabled
• Does NOT occur with Dirac off or with DLBC
• Does NOT occur on Cinema 50 (same room/setup) or Denon X3800H (separate system)

System details:

• 3 subwoofers (2 front, 1 rear), time-aligned and level-matched
• ART topology: subs + LCR as primary bass engine, surrounds/heights provide limited support (−6 dB), Fsiso 150 Hz, support capped at 150 Hz
• No surround/height support into subs

Testing so far:

• Changing support topology, levels, and F-support ranges has no effect
• AVR bass settings (LFE+Main, crossovers, etc.) disabled/ignored as expected under Dirac
• Issue is reproducible only in 2-channel playback modes

Next step:

• REW measurements (L+R sweeps, subs vs full system, ART on/off) to identify behaviour in crossover region

Platform comparison:
This issue does NOT occur on:

• Cinema 50
• Denon X3800H

Both differ from AV20 in DSP/DAC platform.

Suspected shared platform devices:

1. AV10/20/30, Cinema 30, Denon A1H
2. Denon X6800H / A10H
3. Cinema 40/50, Denon X3800H / X4800H

Additional variables tested:

• DAC filter settings
• 2-channel playback modes

Question:
Has anyone else experienced this specifically with ART + stereo playback on these newer D&M platforms?

It would be useful to confirm whether this is:

• platform-specific DSP behaviour
• a Dirac ART bug
• or an interaction specific to stereo processing paths

Thanks

 

[EWL5]

Are you able to make an apples to apples comparison because you had ART on either the Cinema 50 or 3800 as well?

Concerning the DSP, they all share the same SHARC chip from the 3800 on up:

Marantz AV20 13.4 Channel AVP Discussion

Sure, never a bad thing to have more SINAD as a “just in case” to soothe our audiophilia nervosa ;) If there is an option, I would be willing to pay $200 to get 100 dB instead of 90 dB, or $150 more for 105 vs 100 but won't pay more to get above 105.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Derboy]

Are you able to make an apples to apples comparison because you had ART on either the Cinema 50 or 3800 as well?

Concerning the DSP, they all share the same SHARC chip from the 3800 on up:

Marantz AV20 13.4 Channel AVP Discussion

Sure, never a bad thing to have more SINAD as a “just in case” to soothe our audiophilia nervosa ;) If there is an option, I would be willing to pay $200 to get 100 dB instead of 90 dB, or $150 more for 105 vs 100 but won't pay more to get above 105.

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yes. I had ART on the Cinema 50 and still have it running on my x3800h in another room. No such issue with either unit.

Re. the DSP - perhaps it's the DAC that I'm thinking of, but there is definite differences and audio options on the AV20 that weren't present on my Cinema 50 such as DAC Filter and 2-channel playback settings (which is overidden by Dirac anyway).

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I am doing a 2.2 Dirac ART calibration soon, I can check to see what happens on my system. This is on a Denon 3800H.

 

[Derboy]

I am doing a 2.2 Dirac ART calibration soon, I can check to see what happens on my system. This is on a Denon 3800H.

Personal experience leads me to suspect that the Cinema 50 and x3800h are unaffected but please do report back with your findings.

 

[EWL5]

Yes. I had ART on the Cinema 50 and still have it running on my x3800h in another room. No such issue with either unit.

Re. the DSP - perhaps it's the DAC that I'm thinking of, but there is definite differences and audio options on the AV20 that weren't present on my Cinema 50 such as DAC Filter and 2-channel playback settings (which is overidden by Dirac anyway).

Only other difference I can think of is that you have an external amp for the AV20 now whereas prior setups used internal amp?

You re-ran the Dirac calibration upon getting the AV20, right?

 

[Derboy]

Only other difference I can think of is that you have an external amp for the AV20 now whereas prior setups used internal amp?

You re-ran the Dirac calibration upon getting the AV20, right?

My LCR was previously powered by an Anthem MCA325 but it wouldnt be that anyway and it's impossible to use an existing Dirac calibration file from one unit to another so a new Dirac calibration is mandatory not optional, when changing equipment.

This is definitely not a settings or user issue. More than a few users on the Dirac FB group have reported the same issues, I'm posting on here for reach and hopefully get further input from those who have directly experienced the problem.

 

[EWL5]

My LCR was previously powered by an Anthem MCA325 but it wouldnt be that anyway and it's impossible to use an existing Dirac calibration file from one unit to another so a new Dirac calibration is mandatory not optional, when changing equipment.

This is definitely not a settings or user issue. More than a few users on the Dirac FB group have reported the same issues, I'm posting on here for reach and hopefully get further input from those who have directly experienced the problem.

Ok, I've exhausted my capability to help as I neither have Dirac ART nor had too much feedback from stereo users as yourself! Sorry!

 

[JRowland]

Zero issues with a Denon x4800h, I responded to your poll on AVS as well.

 

[Derboy]

Zero issues with a Denon x4800h, I responded to your poll on AVS as well.

There's a poll on AVS? It's not mine. Do you have a link?

 

[JRowland]

There's a poll on AVS? It's not mine. Do you have a link?

It was early this morning before coffee for me. I just looked and didn't see it, it was Facebook sorry for my error. You must be Derek?

 

[Derboy]

It was early this morning before coffee for me. I just looked and didn't see it, it was Facebook sorry for my error. You must be Derek?

Yeah that’s me!

 

[JRowland]

Yeah that’s me!

I'm following along, hope you get it figured out and let us know what "it" was/is.

 

[evo87]

Same issue here on Cinema 40. Tried everything i.e. LFE Reference setting, but didn’t worked out.

I assume it’s a D/M Bug.

 

[Oddball]

Hi all,

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. I couldn’t find a dedicated thread on this behaviour.

I’ve recently upgraded from a Marantz Cinema 50 to an AV20 + AMP20. Dirac ART behaves as expected with multichannel content and upmixing (Dolby Surround, DTS, Auro), however with 2-channel stereo playback, bass coherence collapses. This did not happen with ART on my Cinema 50, nor does it happen with my Denon x3800h running ART in another room.

The issue is track-dependent, but a good example is Eric Clapton – Behind The Mask. The bass sounds detached from the soundstage, hollow/inverted, and as if notes are being prematurely truncated. It appears to centre around the crossover region.

Key observations:

• Issue only occurs with ART enabled
• Does NOT occur with Dirac off or with DLBC
• Does NOT occur on Cinema 50 (same room/setup) or Denon X3800H (separate system)

System details:

• 3 subwoofers (2 front, 1 rear), time-aligned and level-matched
• ART topology: subs + LCR as primary bass engine, surrounds/heights provide limited support (−6 dB), Fsiso 150 Hz, support capped at 150 Hz
• No surround/height support into subs

Testing so far:

• Changing support topology, levels, and F-support ranges has no effect
• AVR bass settings (LFE+Main, crossovers, etc.) disabled/ignored as expected under Dirac
• Issue is reproducible only in 2-channel playback modes

Next step:

• REW measurements (L+R sweeps, subs vs full system, ART on/off) to identify behaviour in crossover region

Platform comparison:
This issue does NOT occur on:

• Cinema 50
• Denon X3800H

Both differ from AV20 in DSP/DAC platform.

Suspected shared platform devices:

1. AV10/20/30, Cinema 30, Denon A1H
2. Denon X6800H / A10H
3. Cinema 40/50, Denon X3800H / X4800H

Additional variables tested:

• DAC filter settings
• 2-channel playback modes

Question:
Has anyone else experienced this specifically with ART + stereo playback on these newer D&M platforms?

It would be useful to confirm whether this is:

• platform-specific DSP behaviour
• a Dirac ART bug
• or an interaction specific to stereo processing paths

Thanks

That's troubling - unfortunately traveling for at least a week so won't be able to check on AV10, that might also be a suspect. Also can't say I experienced that before, or heard about the issue. Not listening to much of stereo nowadays, but did some for sure.

BTW what is your source and format for stereo? And when you say you tested 2-channel playback mode what was that exactly? A separate Dirac calibration for 2.0 system? Otherwise, ART should disregard your Marantz 2 channel playback settings and play it according to the Dirac profile (5.x.x or whatever).

Also what is your firmware? I am running a version or two behind the current one as there was not much reason to upgrade, and always a potential to ruin something fundamental. The fact ART has been around for 6 mos and this was not reported before would be odd. So could be something broken in the latest firmware.

 

[Derboy]

That's troubling - unfortunately traveling for at least a week so won't be able to check on AV10, that might also be a suspect. Also can't say I experienced that before, or heard about the issue. Not listening to much of stereo nowadays, but did some for sure.

BTW what is your source and format for stereo? And when you say you tested 2-channel playback mode what was that exactly? A separate Dirac calibration for 2.0 system? Otherwise, ART should disregard your Marantz 2 channel playback settings and play it according to the Dirac profile (5.x.x or whatever).

Also what is your firmware? I am running a version or two behind the current one as there was not much reason to upgrade, and always a potential to ruin something fundamental. The fact ART has been around for 6 mos and this was not reported before would be odd. So could be something broken in the latest firmware.

There’s a 2-channel playback settings diaglogue in the AVR but Dirac overrules it anyway. I didn’t test it as such. Just tried changing it to see if it made any difference. It didnt. Source is Apple TV, Applle Airplay and CD.

 

[Oddball]

There’s a 2-channel playback settings diaglogue in the AVR but Dirac overrules it anyway. I didn’t test it as such. Just tried changing it to see if it made any difference. It didnt. Source is Apple TV, Applle Airplay and CD.

Well, all of these sources are pretty conventional and should not create any issues. I use ATV or Youtube for most of 2 ch listening. So probably not an issue where some advanced formats could not get resolved.

Firmware question is an important one - as all points that they broke something in the chain which was not broken before.

 

[Derboy]

Well, all of these sources are pretty conventional and should not create any issues. I use ATV or Youtube for most of 2 ch listening. So probably not an issue where some advanced formats could not get resolved.

Firmware question is an important one - as all points that they broke something in the chain which was not broken before.

I’m on the same firmware that it had when it arrived. Which is the latest - 3000-2160-C016-8380 (I assume as it won’t update when checking for updates)

 

[ban25]

I assume you're listening mode is "Stereo" rather than "Direct" since Direct will disable Dirac. I recommend doing a new Dirac calibration and assigning it to a different slot, then compare between each calibration to see if that's the problem.

 

[Derboy]

I assume you're listening mode is "Stereo" rather than "Direct" since Direct will disable Dirac. I recommend doing a new Dirac calibration and assigning it to a different slot, then compare between each calibration to see if that's the problem.

Yes listening in stereo. Have already tried different slots and speaker presets.