Dirac ART on Mac and PC

[Esprit]

Good evening,
It seems interesting, although I'm not sure how much it costs for those who already own a Dirac, and especially if it's useful and can be used with just two speakers (a simple stereo system).

Thanks

 

[SGiniS]

Hi, I don't have Art yet, but because it should be avaible for 2.0 I guess they made it works well anyway. Maybe be carefull to have capable speakers/towers, because cancellation will probably reduce headroom a lot more than standard room correction, because they'll be producing an extra sound for cancellation.
Moreover his cancellation function works in the 20hz-150hz range, which are omnidirectional. So if the speaker is capable I can't think what may be a significant difference compared to a speaker + subwoofer placed nearby.

P.s. in Switzerland the extra price for Art if you already own Dirac bass control is CHF 242 (around 300 Dollars)

 

[MandorliM]

I haven't quite understood what hardware is needed to run Dirac ART from a PC:
I have a PC with the JRiver media player installed and Dirac Live as a VST plugin.
How should the rest of the audio chain be set up?
Currently I have a DAC connected to the PC that acts as a preamplifier, two mono power amplifiers, and a 2.1 speaker system with a subwoofer.
Or do I need to implement an audio interface with at least 3 independent outputs to run Dirac ART?
The explanation on Dirac's website isn't very clear

 

[SGiniS]

I haven't quite understood what hardware is needed to run Dirac ART from a PC:
I have a PC with the JRiver media player installed and Dirac Live as a VST plugin.
How should the rest of the audio chain be set up?
Currently I have a DAC connected to the PC that acts as a preamplifier, two mono power amplifiers, and a 2.1 speaker system with a subwoofer.
Or do I need to implement an audio interface with at least 3 independent outputs to run Dirac ART?
The explanation on Dirac's website isn't very clear

You need an interface or something capable to deal with each channel indipendentely, so dirac can see all of them and control them. I don't think there are any other constraints.

As an exemple, my chain is:
mac mini ->dirac plugin set as audio exit ->motu ultralite mk5-> 2x powered speakers (amp +speaker work the same) and 2x subwoofers

I'm running dirac bass control right now but I got the message my system is compatible with Art (Soon I'll be upgrading).

I extremely happy to learn dirac came to pc:
1)system is way more compact than any other av/avr/hardware art compatible
2)you don't lose your license when changing hardware
3)You have to look for the best solutions for you, but you can still get remote control from any device or use something like fosi vol20 as remote volume control

 

[Esprit]

“and especially if it's useful and can be used with just two speakers (a simple stereo system).”

 

[SGiniS]

Sorry. I thought I've already answered that question. But if you want to know more about Art being useful for your specific case or not I don't think you can escape trying it. Your speakers as well as your space and subjective opinions will be to great of a variable negating the possibility to have a more objective answer IMO. Even in systems with subwoofers some didn't preferred it over other dirac software...

Anyway other than adding subwoofers or a well thought treating of the room you very probably can't improve your sound more than with using better room correction.

 

[peng]

You need an interface or something capable to deal with each channel indipendentely, so dirac can see all of them and control them. I don't think there are any other constraints.

As an exemple, my chain is:
mac mini ->dirac plugin set as audio exit ->motu ultralite mk5-> 2x powered speakers (amp +speaker work the same) and 2x subwoofers

Great point, wonder why it does not seem to get mentioned often enough! If one uses HDMI, such as an AVR, it is easy to do it in 2.1, 3.1, 5.1 etc., and if 2 or 3 subwoofers are used, it's not a problem but I used just Asyn USB and I found it tricky to make it work with subwoofers in my 2 ch stereo systems. No problem calibrating as DL/BC will calibrate the subwoofers individually but to listen to 2 channel music, there would be no output to the subwoofers, I do it with a miniDSP device but I don't prefer doing it that way.

 

[SGiniS]

Sorry, you are right, my chain was incomplete. To hear the subwoofers if the source is 2 channel you need to add an extra step (something transforming 2.0 in 2.1 before dirac processing). I'm using Reaper for that (2 months free, then 60 dollars, but I got said it's one of those licensing they never stop the trial if you don't want to).
So the complete chain is:
mac mini ->motu ultralite as output-> loopback-> reaper ->fx dirac bass controll into reaper -> 2x powered speakers (amp +speaker work the same) and 2x subwoofers

This way I hear also subwoofers when listening youtube or any audio source of the mac.
But it took me quite some time (I'm no expert) and I could never have done that without the help of AI.

P.s. Attention, when calibrating, you have to temporarely set "master send full channel to" also to the subwoofers and personally I had some trouble also with gain setting (both when I believed reaper was not capturing the sound and when calibrating with dirac).

 

[SGiniS]

Great point, wonder why it does not seem to get mentioned often enough! If one uses HDMI, such as an AVR, it is easy to do it in 2.1, 3.1, 5.1 etc., and if 2 or 3 subwoofers are used, it's not a problem but I used just Asyn USB and I found it tricky to make it work with subwoofers in my 2 ch stereo systems. No problem calibrating as DL/BC will calibrate the subwoofers individually but to listen to 2 channel music, there would be no output to the subwoofers, I do it with a miniDSP device but I don't prefer doing it that way.

@peng Sorry I just realized in my system is not 2.2 instead of 2.0 because of reaper. Reaper was only there for me for having additionals externals inputs. It's pretty simple if you just want audio from the pc/mac. Diraclive processor alone is well capable of trasforming 2.0 in 2.2.

After the calibration you did (stereo + add x sub ->select custom on main page), before exporting the filter you have to:
1)create the target curve (I imported +6dB Harman Kardon curve)
2) go on the upper right and click bass control or Art.
3) Then click "calculate" on the bottom right (this create the crossover) and after that export.

Now when playing a 2.0 source on the pc/mac it come out in 2.2. So also the first chain I posted should be right (for the second chain, you can use "Blackhole" instead of a audio loopback).

Yesterday I bought Dirac Art for mac. Definitely worth the money and recommended. The difference is clearly audible in my case, it's not subtle at all for me.
I haven't mesured the results objectively yet, but I spent some time doing A/B test with music with a lot of bass (where art is supposed to help the most) between standard dirac vs art and bass control vs art. With or without subwoofers (2 separeted calibrations were required).

The bass is more focused and less boomy. Of course, because you are getting rid of peaks, for the same bass levels you will need to increase the volume (which you can do more now because the sound it's more equilibrated).

Small disclaimer: my main speakers do 32hz(-6db), so depending on the room and your speakers you may have very differents results.
I reccommend without hesitation.

 

[peng]

@peng Sorry I just realized in my system is not 2.2 instead of 2.0 because of reaper. Reaper was only there for me for having additionals externals inputs. It's pretty simple if you just want audio from the pc/mac. Diraclive processor alone is well capable of trasforming 2.0 in 2.2.

After the calibration you did (stereo + add x sub ->select custom on main page), before exporting the filter you have to:
1)create the target curve (I imported +6dB Harman Kardon curve)
2) go on the upper right and click bass control or Art.
3) Then click "calculate" on the bottom right (this create the crossover) and after that export.

Now when playing a 2.0 source on the pc/mac it come out in 2.2. So also the first chain I posted should be right (for the second chain, you can use "Blackhole" instead of a audio loopback).

Yesterday I bought Dirac Art for mac. Definitely worth the money and recommended. The difference is clearly audible in my case, it's not subtle at all for me.
I haven't mesured the results objectively yet, but I spent some time doing A/B test with music with a lot of bass (where art is supposed to help the most) between standard dirac vs art and bass control vs art. With or without subwoofers (2 separeted calibrations were required).

The bass is more focused and less boomy. Of course, because you are getting rid of peaks, for the same bass levels you will need to increase the volume (which you can do more now because the sound it's more equilibrated).

Small disclaimer: my main speakers do 32hz(-6db), so depending on the room and your speakers you may have very differents results.
I reccommend without hesitation.

I am still not sure if we are talking about the same thing. To be clear, I have no issue setting up DLBC with L, R, and two subwoofers, DLBC will calibrate L,R, and sub1, sub2 individually. The problem is, when using it for 2 ch stereo music, there will be no outputs to the subwoofers as there are no subwoofer channel info in stereo music contents. If I use the system with an AVR then there is no problem because an AVR such as a Denon AVR-X4800H (just an example) the AVR will send the L/R channel to sub1 and sub2 using the stereo menu. I am getting around that using my miniDSP HTx but I don't think that is a good way to do it.

 

[SGiniS]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. After the calibration, before exporting filters, if you click on the upper right on the text "Bass control*TM" or "Art*TM"(as in photo under dirac live), a "calculate" option will appear on the bottom instead of export filter. After calculating you can export and activate the filter. Later on, when playing any 2ch sound on the mac, the dirac filter will turn it into 2ch+subs and send the low end to the subs.

As an exemple: watching a video on youtube (2ch), if I look on the diraclive processor, I see 4 column of sound moving up and down and all 4 speakers will be playing.

I'm not sure 100% this work if using directly dirac as chosen audio output, because I chosed to also add blackhole and reaper before for other reasons (and it would be a pain to undo just for test). However if I turn off the dirac filter the subwoofers channels disappers while the main keep playing. So it must be dirac creating the subwoofers tracks. Ergo, it should work also if using directly dirac as the pc/mac output

 

[peng]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. After the calibration, before exporting filters, if you click on the upper right on the text "Bass control*TM" or "Art*TM"(as in photo under dirac live), a "calculate" option will appear on the bottom instead of export filter. After calculating you can export and activate the filter. Later on, when playing any 2ch sound on the mac, the dirac filter will turn it into 2ch+subs and send the low end to the subs.
View attachment 543115
As an exemple: watching a video on youtube (2ch), if I look on the diraclive processor, I see 4 column of sound moving up and down and all 4 speakers will be playing.

I'm not sure 100% this work if using directly dirac as chosen audio output, because I chosed to also add blackhole and reaper before for other reasons (and it would be a pain to undo just for test). However if I turn off the dirac filter the subwoofers channels disappers while the main keep playing. So it must be dirac creating the subwoofers tracks. Ergo, it should work also if using directly dirac as the pc/mac output

I did all those things, but no, it wouldn't work. Good to know it works for you, that gives me hope. Actually, the REW graphs were quite nice without the subs; so I thought it was working as intended for a few days before I realized the subs were silent. I was misled by the not bad looking graphs, talk about Placebo!

Dirac Live is so good, even without the subs, my DIY BMR bookshelves that have small 7 inch woofers was playing quite deep, without DL there wasn't much bass.

 

[SGiniS]

Happy to see you still have a good response!
I don't know, maybe is blackhole + reaper then. I'm not enough expert of it to say. I'm 100% sure it's working for me (to full potential? I'll have to test and understand this more to say). I see 4 output tracks moving on dirac and on the motu, I see the subwoofers woofers moving and I clearly ear the bass is different (and both different with dirac->DLBC->Art in blind A/B test). How the crossover is working however is something I'll have to go deeper to learn about and to be sure the mains are not still full range. I know it's not placebo because before having all working correctly I failed many times to set it up and those times I struggled to ear differences with A/B blind tests (it was delusional those times), while now it's not at all.
As soon as I'll have time to get better with REW I will try to mesure exactly what each speaker/subwoofer is reproducing and comparing it to the reference track, but It'll take some time.
In the end, enjoying music is the only parameter that really matter

 

[SGiniS]

P.s. in dirac processor "custom channel config" you started with the "stereo" output and added the subs? because if you chosed 2.1 surround or quadraphonic it allows you to calibrate but it doesn't create a track for the subs later

Then you chosed "custom" on the main page of dirac processor?
Because otherwise it's the reason it doesn't work

 

[peng]

P.s. in dirac processor "custom channel config" you started with the "stereo" output and added the subs? because if you chosed 2.1 surround or quadraphonic it allows you to calibrate but it doesn't create a track for the subs later

Then you chosed "custom" on the main page of dirac processor?
Because otherwise it's the reason it doesn't work

Again, it is not because of the configuration, I had it working before when using an AVR via HDMI to the PC. This issue started only when I removed the AVR and started using USB connection between the 8 channel minidsp flex HTx and the same PC (a laptop). Thank you for trying to help, and yes I configure it following the exact instructions as shown on the Dirac website. I did not use 2.1 surround or quadraphonic, but just L, R, and two subwoofers.

My laptop is currently not working, got the no signal, no license message, tried activate but it would not do it, got a support ticket started and waiting for them to fix it, until then cannot post screenshot, but it did look like to following for calibration, but when using it, changed it to "Custom".

As soon as the license is fixed, I will try the grouping thins, in case the L/R are not in the same group with the subwoofers but that may not be the issue, just something to try.

By the way, are you using USB like I do, or HDMI/AVR/AVP?

 

[SGiniS]

Ok, sorry. I see the difficulty, I got some bugs at some point too. I also asked those basic questions because I did those errors too at first, but in your photo it's right.
If you also selected "custom" as you said on the main page before calibration and wenn you are using it after, there are no other things I changed in the dirac software.
Maybe Blackhole and reaper are really mandatory for giving signal to the subs. That's bad, they should have implemented it inside dirac.

P.s. yes, I'm using usb from mac to a motu mk5 ultralite connected to the speakers/subs.
No other hardware involved.
The only software I'm using are
1) Blackhole 16ch (Before continuing I had to create an aggregate on Mac MIDI audio for Blackhole+Reaper)
2) Reaper
I created only 1 track for dirac use, it's called "Input main" (see configuration below). The routing and Fx Dirac are in the master
Ignore the "toslink" and "Analog" tracks, those are work in progress and not related or needed.
3)As said Fx of Dirac live processor is inside reaper
4)Dirac live was used for calibration

Disclaimer: I'm no expert, so something may not be perfect, but the dirac filters are working and as soon as i can I will try to understand how the crossover is done (I know for sure I don't hear some bass signal if I'm muting the subs, while the main should be capable of doing 32hz(-6dB), but I will have to explore if dirac or reaper chosed the frequency)

 

[peng]

Ok, sorry. I see the difficulty, I got some bugs too at some point. I also asked those basic questions because I did those errors too at first, but in your photo it's right.
If you also selected "custom" as you said on the main page before calibration and wenn you are using it after, there are no other things I changed in the dirac software.
Maybe Blackhole and reaper are really mandatory for giving signal to the subs. That's bad, they should have implemented it inside dirac.

P.s. yes, I'm using usb from mac to a motu mk5 ultralite connected to the speakers/subs.
No other hardware involved. The only software I'm using are 1) Blackhole 16ch 2) Reaper (created only 1 track for dirac) 3)Fx of Dirac live processor 4)Dirac live was used for calibration
View attachment 543225

I know nothing about Blackholde and Reaper so I am not sure if they made the difference. I can't wait for the license thing to get sorted, then I will continue troubleshooting let you know the results.

 

[SGiniS]

I know nothing about Blackholde and Reaper so I am not sure if they made the difference. I can't wait for the license thing to get sorted, then I will continue troubleshooting let you know the results.

I suggest to try them out. I entered them without any previous experience, but with multiples tries and by being helped from AI (with screenshots) it worked. Feel free to ask, if I can i will be glad to help and save you some time (but as said I'm no expert :S)

Good luck with dirac assistance!

 

[napfkuchen]

You need an interface or something capable to deal with each channel indipendentely, so dirac can see all of them and control them. I don't think there are any other constraints.

my configuration is: computer -> usb-soundcard (optical out to ...) -> WiiM pro (coaxial out to ...) -> Genelec speakers and subwoofer (xlr daisy-chained)

So I'm out? Any experience with Genelec?

 

[SGiniS]

Unfortunately I'm afraid so. I think you can still do basic dirac for the mains and buy a minidsp 4x4 for correcting the sub (but i have no experience with that), but for bass control/art you must be able to route sound to each channel indipendentely

For Genelec: a flat anechoic response is ideal for dsp and room correction uses, so Genelecs should respond very well. I'm using some 8050b and they respond extremely well for me