Dirac ART + MSO for extra channels?

[ymsgsepfb]

I'm thinking of running 7.4.6 or 9.4.4 and want to use Dirac ART, but my processor is 16 channel only. Is it a bad idea to use a minidsp 2x4hd to eq 2 of the subs together, then have Dirac see 3 subs (2 individual, 1 pair)?

 

[levimax]

I'm thinking of running 7.4.6 or 9.4.4 and want to use Dirac ART, but my processor is 16 channel only. Is it a bad idea to use a minidsp 2x4hd to eq 2 of the subs together, then have Dirac see 3 subs (2 individual, 1 pair)?

Haven't tried it myself but it should work. I would colocate the 2 subs hooked up to the minidsp as close as possible to each so they act like a point source.

 

[ymsgsepfb]

Haven't tried it myself but it should work. I would colocate the 2 subs hooked up to the minidsp as close as possible to each so they act like a point source.

Should I just eq delay and gain or run the whole MSO workflow?

 

[levimax]

I don't know for sure, my experience with ART is that it is very sensitive to sub timing issues. I had to move 2 support subs closer to the LP, when further away ART created nonsensical delays that sounded terrible but it did not indicate any errors. I would colocate the subs and use the minidsp to make them act like one single point source. Any other way and I would guess it would mess up ART.

 

[ymsgsepfb]

I don't know for sure, my experience with ART is that it is very sensitive to sub timing issues. I had to move 2 support subs closer to the LP, when further away ART created nonsensical delays that sounded terrible but it did not indicate any errors. I would colocate the subs and use the minidsp to make them act like one single point source. Any other way and I would guess it would mess up ART.

Doesn't sound worth it then tbh. I'll probably just connect all 4 subs to processor directly to cover 4 corners of the room. That leaves me at 7.4.4, not sure what to do with that extra 16th channel

 

[BJL]

Doesn't sound worth it then tbh. I'll probably just connect all 4 subs to processor directly to cover 4 corners of the room. That leaves me at 7.4.4, not sure what to do with that extra 16th channel

You might consider setting up ART initially with two subs. I suspect that you will conclude that with the power of Dirac ART you have no need for four subs, which would then give you two more channels, allowing you add front wides, far more important than the extra two subs, giving you a 9.2.4 system.

 

[jaakkopetteri]

I would say this depends a lot on your surrounds - can they extend low enough to take over some of the subs' individual contribution?
In any case, I would 100% go for a 2x4HD rather than just omitting two subs. To be honest, if your subs have phase control, I would just rotate the phase in the other sub until they sum reasonably well together at MLP and some nearby positions

 

[john61ct]

Noob here but from my reading I would not allow much overlap in functionality between ART and MSO.

MSO is for a group of Mono only subs, so maybe 80Hz would be a good demarc.

Put stereo bass otherwise in the ART group, keep the subs (up into mid reinforcement duty maybe even above the Schröder transition) co-located

Splitting off a separate single Mono trueSub (<80Hz) signal, those subs can be freely placed and used primarily for room wrangling, managed by MSO not by ART at all.

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I would say the problem is the interaction between the MSO EQ and Dirac ART EQ of the subwoofers.

I think using MSO to set the delays of each subwoofer for max spl with the Minidsp and using one subwoofer output from the AVR to the Minidsp and multiple subwoofers is worth a shot and comparing to ART handling the subs individually.

I personally wouldn’t mix a summed sub and individual subs with ART.

I am going to be experimenting with using ART to manage my 2 subs individually and a single summed subwoofers single.

 

[BJL]

I would say this depends a lot on your surrounds - can they extend low enough to take over some of the subs' individual contribution?
In any case, I would 100% go for a 2x4HD rather than just omitting two subs. To be honest, if your subs have phase control, I would just rotate the phase in the other sub until they sum reasonably well together at MLP and some nearby positions

It is not possible to get valid Dirac Live ART filters if there is a second device with other subs connected.

It is not simply that the other speakers "take over" some of the subs contribution. ART filters act to eliminate room modes and other undesirable aspects of the room. The surrounds can be set to support the sub within whatever frequency range the surrounds can handle. ART addresses 20-150 Hz, and each supporting speaker is defined with a low frequency cutoff.

If the OP already has purchased an ART license (or has a licensed AVR/AVP) the easy answer is to try it and see if the result is satisfactory using two or three subs leaving two channels available for front wide (better) or top middle - or - if the OP has decided to use ART, buy the license but nothing else.

One thing is certain, it is not possible to get valid filters from ART if speakers are added outside of the ART measurements and calibration. In that case, purchasing an ART license would be a waste of money.

 

[jaakkopetteri]

One thing is certain, it is not possible to get valid filters from ART if speakers are added outside of the ART measurements and calibration. In that case, purchasing an ART license would be a waste of money.

No one has suggested anything like this. Just dial in the subs together and then run ART with them as a "single" sub. There are zero issues with this approach

 

[BJL]

No one has suggested anything like this. Just dial in the subs together and then run ART with them as a "single" sub. There are zero issues with this approach

It won't work. You need to better familiarize yourself with ART. The physical position of each speaker is critical to the ART calculations.

 

[jaakkopetteri]

It won't work. You need to better familiarize yourself with ART. The physical position of each speaker is critical to the ART calculations.

So line arrays or large subs with multiple drivers wouldn't work either? Do you have a citation for that?

 

[janbth]

No one has suggested anything like this. Just dial in the subs together and then run ART with them as a "single" sub. There are zero issues with this approach

It won't work. You need to better familiarize yourself with ART. The physical position of each speaker is critical to the ART calculations.

In my opinion, I think the «truth» is somewhere in the middle. You can add multiple subs together with a miniDSP and hand them over to ART, which sees them as a single sub. This might work OK if you know what you are doing. However, it somewhat defeats the purpose if ART, who will probably achieve a more optimal result when it can use all the available subs.

 

[jaakkopetteri]

In my opinion, I think the «truth» is somewhere in the middle. You can add multiple subs together with a miniDSP and hand them over to ART, which sees them as a single sub. This might work OK if you know what you are doing. However, it somewhat defeats the purpose if ART, who will probably achieve a more optimal result when it can use all the available subs.

I mean, of course having ART handle all four subs individually would be better, but to suggest that two subs would be better than two subs plus two subs combined into one seems silly, let alone it not working at all

 

[anotherhobby]

I think a better choice might be to instead use that miniDSP as a crossover to add those subs to the surround channels that are closest, and then ART will use them appropriately. It's not as effective as a full sub since you won't get the sub above the crossover, but in the sub-range it should do the trick. This would also require using the AVR pre-outs and external amps for the chosen speakers, but you can get plenty of cheap class-d amps that would handle that workload just fine.

 

[levimax]

to suggest that two subs would be better than two subs plus two subs combined into one seems silly, let alone it not working at all

I'm not so sure about that, in my case when ART didn't like where I had positioned 2 support subs (which were in addition to 2 other collocated subs), even though they were independently controlled, it went haywire with the delays and sounded terrible without any warning messages that there was a problem. When I moved the subs closer (a suggestion I found online) and remeasured, everything worked as expected. I think it is worth a try to combine the 2 subs but I would verify carefully that the timing makes sense. The "safest / most reliable" would be to use 3 subs independently controlled by ART.

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I think a better choice might be to instead use that miniDSP as a crossover to add those subs to the surround channels that are closest, and then ART will use them appropriately. It's not as effective as a full sub since you won't get the sub above the crossover, but in the sub-range it should do the trick. This would also require using the AVR pre-outs and external amps for the chosen speakers, but you can get plenty of cheap class-d amps that would handle that workload just fine.

I like this approach, I may try this approach myself and co-locate subs to speakers.