Dirac ART is now running on beta FW for Denon Xx800H AVRs!

[jsc1979]

I agree with this argument - I paid for the old multi-sub DLBC license. That said I bit the bullet since I have been waiting for this product for so damn long anyway.

Same but hasn’t stopped me sending an email asking them the question

 

[R4pture]

Apologies for not having the answers for your questions - just did not have time to dig into Dirac, and might not for some time.

For support signals, you can obviously reduce the intensity or if that does not work exclude them from support group. But would expect that lowest level support would effectively do that. For 22hz rolloff did that come with infrasonic sub option checked (and do you really want that)? Otherwise, filters sometimes can't really correct all you want which would be normal for e.g. Audy or REW filters.

I do have a question, might sound stupid, but it was kicked around for years waiting for this very moment. Apparently ART in the past supported only one main sub and then was treating the rest of the subs as support and that was later on fixed in later versions of Storm's ART implementation. It was always a question how will D&M implement or if Dirac fixed this themselves. So can you pls check if all of your subs are active as main subs? And if so, how did you achieve that? On another forum a member with 2 subs and only one group for them reports that only one of the two subs is active as main sub.

Many thanks for your help in advance.

I did not know about the little infrasonic bypass checkoption in the bottom left corner for each selected speaker group . All the measurements from my other comment had this option disabled.

I did a little test with bypass on:

Looks a bit closer to what DLBC was doing before ART.

---
For an extension to my other comment:

I did some reading and as far as I understand it now, the curves you set in your subwoofer group only applies to content with a dedicated LFE-Channel. Please correct me If am wrong. The subwoofer curve does not have an effect on two-channel soundtracks. For two-channel audio I have to apply a more aggressive curve on my main channel group. Every speaker that supports my front speakers will add energy to where they can or are set to in the support range. All subwoofers will add energy in the low-end to hit the target curve for my main speakers. For the measurements in this comment I had to activate the bypass option in the main speaker group instead of the subwoofer group:

Some rumbling effects on certain soundtracks were missing without the bypass option. I think I like it better with bypass on. If I am right, I think it is pretty cool to change the behaviour of the subwoofers for content with an exclusive LFE-Channel. However, I have not tested it yet.
---

Unfortunately, I can't really tell you much about the thing with main subs and support subs. But does it matter for the final output? I can set a LFE-Reference (which is currently on subwoofer 2), so I think that one gets the LFE-Signal? Every other subwoofer in the subwoofer group should help that one out to achieve the target LFE-Curve. Not sure how ART will balance the load between all 4 subwoofers especially on more dynamic content like Dune or Bladerunner 2049. There are still lots of questions.

 

[davidc]

Ok, so I finally did some listening tests and as picky as I am, there are some issues that I have with ART (atleast in my room). But there are also some really good things that I have to write about it first.

I have not taken my time to remeasure everything. I have used my latest dirac file and switched from DLBC to ART.

So the first thing that I have noticed is the "tighter" bass. Some songs with low end bass around 20-30hz sound much better to me. That is truly amazing. However, I already liked the result of DLBC and the addition of 2 extra subwoofers (switching from 2 to 4) was already a big (subjective) improvement.

Switched "from" DBLC "to" ART? You are supposed to use both, correct?

 

[R4pture]

Switched "from" DBLC "to" ART? You are supposed to use both, correct?

Yes, you are right of course. ART should use the functionalities coming with Bass Control and BC is needed if you use subwoofers.

I just meant the switch from Bass Control to ART in the Windows Dirac application.

 

[Oddball]

I did not know about the little infrasonic bypass checkoption in the bottom left corner for each selected speaker group . All the measurements from my other comment had this option disabled.

I did a little test with bypass on:
View attachment 480007

Looks a bit closer to what DLBC was doing before ART.

---
For an extension to my other comment:

I did some reading and as far as I understand it now, the curves you set in your subwoofer group only applies to content with a dedicated LFE-Channel. Please correct me If am wrong. The subwoofer curve does not have an effect on two-channel soundtracks. For two-channel audio I have to apply a more aggressive curve on my main channel group. Every speaker that supports my front speakers will add energy to where they can or are set to in the support range. All subwoofers will add energy in the low-end to hit the target curve for my main speakers. For the measurements in this comment I had to activate the bypass option in the main speaker group instead of the subwoofer group:
View attachment 480015
Some rumbling effects on certain soundtracks were missing without the bypass option. I think I like it better with bypass on. If I am right, I think it is pretty cool to change the behaviour of the subwoofers for content with an exclusive LFE-Channel. However, I have not tested it yet.
---

Unfortunately, I can't really tell you much about the thing with main subs and support subs. But does it matter for the final output? I can set a LFE-Reference (which is currently on subwoofer 2), so I think that one gets the LFE-Signal? Every other subwoofer in the subwoofer group should help that one out to achieve the target LFE-Curve. Not sure how ART will balance the load between all 4 subwoofers especially on more dynamic content like Dune or Bladerunner 2049. There are still lots of questions.

While I can't help much with the stereo support as never explored that, glad that you did squeeze in some from infrasonic bass setting.

For me it is not clear after all I read and heard (which is definitively more than average), what they actually do with the subs including their apparently latest release. I don't want to question results that people are apparently getting, but also what to understand what is under the hood and what and how it actually achieves that magic.

ART - Advanced guidelines & tips - STORMAUDIO - KNOWLEDGE CENTER - Knowledge Center

support-stormaudio.atlassian.net

In traditional setups, SPL of your subs will add up and they will be EQd, generally, as a group. If you have a large room and want to pressurize it, one sub will not do. That is why people were doing the sub hoarding for decades. I do want to keep my SPL with 4 subs and want the subs to blast at 115dB at at least 30hz (although they can do 20hz as well). One will not be capable of that in my room. It is also a matter of distortion when you lower the output of all your subs working together in a traditional way, they don't have to work that hard, so distortion will be reduced. This is not about the curve, it is about the hardware limits. Or is ART going to make sure (somehow) they achieve 115dB SPL as a group?

I think you can check easily if the cones in your subs are moving in the same way. A better test would be compression test for the subs to see how they perform with DLBC vs ART - although even better in my case would be Audy vs ART. Never had much success with DLBC, but not for the reasons of sub management.

 

[fzst]

For me it is not clear after all I read and heard (which is definitively more than average), what they actually do with the subs including their apparently latest release. I don't want to question results that people are apparently getting, but also what to understand what is under the hood and what and how it actually achieves that magic.

ART - Advanced guidelines & tips - STORMAUDIO - KNOWLEDGE CENTER - Knowledge Center

support-stormaudio.atlassian.net

In traditional setups, SPL of your subs will add up and they will be EQd, generally, as a group. If you have a large room and want to pressurize it, one sub will not do. That is why people were doing the sub hoarding for decades. I do want to keep my SPL with 4 subs and want the subs to blast at 115dB at at least 30hz (although they can do 20hz as well). One will not be capable of that in my room. It is also a matter of distortion when you lower the output of all your subs working together in a traditional way, they don't have to work that hard, so distortion will be reduced. This is not about the curve, it is about the hardware limits. Or is ART going to make sure (somehow) they achieve 115dB SPL as a group?

I think you can check easily if the cones in your subs are moving in the same way. A better test would be compression test for the subs to see how they perform with DLBC vs ART - although even better in my case would be Audy vs ART. Never had much success with DLBC, but not for the reasons of sub management.

Indeed, that's still the biggest question mark for me as well. Actually, I'm kinda surprised that we didn't hear any negative feedback about people's setup suddenly lacking bass since ART only takes one or maybe two (if you group your front subs together - at least that's how I understood it..?) subs to produce the LFE. I have four subs and they provide a lot of pressurisation in my small room, if suddenly I had only one again (and the others were only sending out cancelling waves), I would certainly be underwhelmed by the deep bass performance (since they are sealed subs, so no deep bass monsters). Maybe everyone who tested it so far, was just rocking such ridiculously overpowered subs, that it wasn't any issue when only one or two have to produce the LFE- track?

Also, I have one sub positioned almost nearfield right next to the couch, what will RT do with that? If this sub falls away as an LFE-producing source, I'm pretty sure I'd miss the tactile sensation... Well I guess there is now way around it, I'll have to test it

 

[jtatknox]

Indeed, that's still the biggest question mark for me as well. Actually, I'm kinda surprised that we didn't hear any negative feedback about people's setup suddenly lacking bass since ART only takes one or maybe two if you group your front subs together (at least that's how I understood it..?). I have four subs and they provide a lot of pressurisation in my small room, if suddenly I had only one again (and the others were only sending out cancelling waves), I would certainly be underwhelmed by the deep bass performance (since they are sealed subs, so no deep bass monsters). Maybe everyone who tested it so far, was just rocking such ridiculously overpowered subs, that it wasn't any issue when only one or two have to produce the LFE- track?

Also, I have one sub positioned almost nearfield right next to the couch, what will RT do with that? If this sub falls away as an LFE-producing source, I'm pretty sure I'd miss the tactile sensation... Well I guess there is now way around it, I'll have to test it

They don't just send out canceling waves - they send out a mix from each sub. I haven't tested a LFE track - just music with deep bass but there is a lot more bass with ART engaged, it just is very tight.

My setup has the F12 near field and the 10Es in the corner. I hear and feel good bass anywhere I sit or stand.

 

[Oddball]

Well, my first experience with ART on Storm was really thigh but thin. It was a demo so not much I could to on parameters, but was not convinced.

I do not want to pollute the thread as I am using all of D&M bass management features plus 2x2 double bass array. I called up the Storm dealer that will come to figure out what I have and how that compares what I could have with ART. I am sure he will be biased, but at least will get some cohesive answers. There are so many questions on my part and how that translates in real life use. I do have so many levers to control the bass in real time that I honestly don't want to lose.

 

[PHD]

Today's FW update for the 2023 series (X800H, Cinema) enabled Dirac ART. If you're using A1 EVO. I'd wait to see if there are no new bug reports, as ART introduces significant changes to current DSP algorithms even for Audyssey.

Dirac Live for Denon - Dirac

Dirac Live brings advanced room correction to Denon AV receivers, creating balanced, detailed, and immersive sound for music listening and home theatre.

www.dirac.com

 

[Oddball]

Not sure I follow - how would the ART implementation have any impact on Audy? Any link available?

 

[juliangst]

I didn't know ART was finally out for Marantz/Denon.
But why does the ART package include Bass Control? It shouldn't be needed if ART utilizes all speakers down to a specified frequency without any hard crossover boundaries.

 

[Ciobi69]

You need bass control , you have to buy the whole package as it is an extension

 

[PHD]

Not sure I follow - how would the ART implementation have any impact on Audy? Any link available?

Dirac Live for Denon - Dirac

Dirac Live brings advanced room correction to Denon AV receivers, creating balanced, detailed, and immersive sound for music listening and home theatre.

www.dirac.com

It makes significant changes to the DSP implementation pipeline. You should be OK with ady file transfer, but be careful with the OCA files transfers.

 

[masterhw]

I didn't know ART was finally out for Marantz/Denon.
But why does the ART package include Bass Control? It shouldn't be needed if ART utilizes all speakers down to a specified frequency without any hard crossover boundaries.

DLBC is more addressed to flattening frequency response, ART is about reducing reverb/decay. They don’t do the same thing, and ART doesn’t necessarily supersede DLBC.

 

[juliangst]

Just looked it up again and it says:

Requires Room Correction (and Bass Control – if you have subwoofers)

Correct me if I'm wrong:

-Normal Dirac Live room correction for multichannel systems just flattens the response and sets delays.
-Bass control crosses over subs with speakers and corrects phase by using all pass filters (basically perfect automated multi sub optimization).
-ART uses "anti sound signals" to actively absorb/cancel resonances up to 150Hz which drastically reduces RT60 in that region. The amount of support and frequency range for each speaker group can be adjusted in the software.

I can imagine that Bass Control becomes a requirement for ART if you use multiple subwoofers, because normal Dirac Live room correction only deals with .1 subwoofer channels.
Apart from that, most functions of Bass Control would become useless when ART is installed too, right?

 

[jtatknox]

You need bass control , you have to buy the whole package as it is an extension

Only if you have subs.

 

[jtatknox]

Well, my first experience with ART on Storm was really thigh but thin. It was a demo so not much I could to on parameters, but was not convinced.

I do not want to pollute the thread as I am using all of D&M bass management features plus 2x2 double bass array. I called up the Storm dealer that will come to figure out what I have and how that compares what I could have with ART. I am sure he will be biased, but at least will get some cohesive answers. There are so many questions on my part and how that translates in real life use. I do have so many levers to control the bass in real time that I honestly don't want to lose.

More experimenting. Today I broke out the F12 from the two RSL 10E subs. The software made the F12 a main LFE sub and set the 10E subs into a support mode. This let me check the "infra" box just for the F12, which is obviously the better sub. The 10Es are still cranking out bass but they are just trying to make the F12 sound its best.

I'm really happy with it - about 4 dB of bass boost feels like 12 dB of bass boost before ART but it's tight and not flabby. It's like wearing headphones that you can feel.

 

[David_Alexander]

A question about ART. I currently run a 5.1.2 system with Monolith Encore T6 towers (L&R), THX-C365 (C) Encore B6 (Surrounds) and 3 M-15 subs. Using DLBC I'd have the crossovers set to about 80Hz. But the T6 speakers are known for having a decent bass extension (I think in-room they go down to high 20's Hz)

If using ART would it be best to run all speakers (not subs) as full range to maximize the assistance that each speaker can lend to cancel unwanted frequencies?

Also would it be best to employ low extension tower speakers as rear surrounds? The B6 bookshelves go low but but if I have space I could get some towers in the future.

 

[DutchJay]

A question about ART. I currently run a 5.1.2 system with Monolith Encore T6 towers (L&R), THX-C365 (C) Encore B6 (Surrounds) and 3 M-15 subs. Using DLBC I'd have the crossovers set to about 80Hz. But the T6 speakers are known for having a decent bass extension (I think in-room they go down to high 20's Hz)

If using ART would it be best to run all speakers (not subs) as full range to maximize the assistance that each speaker can lend to cancel unwanted frequencies?

Also would it be best to employ low extension tower speakers as rear surrounds? The B6 bookshelves go low but but if I have space I could get some towers in the

Theoretically: The more frequencies you can cover with your speakers the better the results will be. And yes, if your tower have decent bass and you have enough juice in your amp to prob drive them you can let them support from the 3db down point that the manufacturer specs.

On your rears, it still needs to be seen if towers are needed there. I would doubt it as you have 3 subs that van support eachother and the rest of your speakers and you have those towers. Think that is ample to get good results, but as long as we don't have solid measurements in we have no proof.

 

[David_Alexander]

Theoretically: The more frequencies you can cover with your speakers the better the results will be. And yes, if your tower have decent bass and you have enough juice in your amp to prob drive them you can let them support from the 3db down point that the manufacturer specs.

On your rears, it still needs to be seen if towers are needed there. I would doubt it as you have 3 subs that van support eachother and the rest of your speakers and you have those towers. Think that is ample to get good results, but as long as we don't have solid measurements in we have no proof.

Sound's good. All of my equipment is in storage. I'm hoping to move in to the new house before the end of the month so will have a lot of setting up and configuring to do.

Does ART effectively run the subs at 'full range' as it says it manages bass response <150Hz ad I think the M-15s have an upper range of 160Hz? Again, from memory I guess DLBC would cross the subs at around the crossover point of ~80Hz when using bass control.