Dirac ART is now running on beta FW for Denon Xx800H AVRs!

[i_max2k2]

I already had measurements saved and just needed to update the firmware, which took ten minutes. No bugs.

So you don’t need to take fresh measurements again for this. I have has the DLBC license but I had been still using the REW setup for my subs. I guess I will have to incorporate the subs directly into the AVR without the Minidsp.

Edit: Btw was anyone running BEQ (BassEQ) using Minidsp 2x4HD before switching to DLBC and still using them? I have two subs and I can connect the two inputs from the AVR via minidsp to an output and link them 1:1. Remove any filters from REW and apply only BassEQ after correction, this should still work right?

 

[jtatknox]

So you don’t need to take fresh measurements again for this. I have has the DLBC license but I had been still using the REW setup for my subs. I guess I will have to incorporate the subs directly into the AVR without the Minidsp.

That's the way to do it in this case. The whole point of DLBC is not needing to do manual setup.

 

[i_max2k2]

That's the way to do it in this case. The whole point of DLBC is not needing to do manual setup.

Indeed. I added this edit to my previous post, but wondering if anyone has done this already i.e. running BEQ (BassEQ) using Minidsp 2x4HD with DLBC? I have two subs and I can connect the two inputs from the AVR via minidsp to an output and link them 1:1. Remove any filters from REW and apply only BassEQ after correction, this should still work right?

 

[jtatknox]

Indeed. I added this edit to my previous post, but wondering if anyone has done this already i.e. running BEQ (BassEQ) using Minidsp 2x4HD with DLBC? I have two subs and I can connect the two inputs from the AVR via minidsp to an output and link them 1:1. Remove any filters from REW and apply only BassEQ after correction, this should still work right?

Sounds reasonable, but might not work ideally since it is only applying to the subs and not the mains or other support speakers you may have.

 

[NainSG]

So I can use my DLBC measurements with ART ? No need to take new measurements ? (I have a baby at home now)

 

[jtatknox]

So I can use my DLBC measurements with ART ? No need to take new measurements ? (I have a baby at home now)

Yes as long as your setup hasn't changed.

 

[davidc]

ART IS HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO BASS CONTROL NEEDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[NainSG]

Yes as long as your setup hasn't changed.

Thanks mate !

 

[smygolf]

Boink.......

Time to buy a new receiver and play with ART

Shop Dirac Live - Dirac

Shop Dirac to get the latest audio optimisation software and licenses. Unlock powerful room correction technologies like Dirac Live to transform your home and automotive sound.

www.dirac.com

 

[i_max2k2]

Sounds reasonable, but might not work ideally since it is only applying to the subs and not the mains or other support speakers you may have.

I understand but typically BassEQ isn’t putting out much more beyond the subwoofer audio range and mains will have a crossover around ~80Hz anyway.

 

[Frank207be]

You guys are quick. I am not in such a rush and will spend some time traveling so ART might wait till Christmas.

So looks like no bugs and thingy just works? That is really good news.

@SDC anything out there from D&M to read through with respect to 96 support ch limitation? Some models do up to 9.4.6.

Only minor ones related to the measurement software (No network found) but other than that only joy.

As expected ART only works to 20Hz and single digit chasers could feel underwhelmed. OTOH I ran a few clips and especially the 20-40Hz region really cleaned up nicely in my room so I'm very happy!

 

[R4pture]

Does anybody have an idea why the corrected ART result has a steep roll-off at around 22hz instead of 20hz? There is clearly energy below 22 hz for two subwoofers and all 4 subs are rated down to 19hz(-3db).

I can't really change the position of the other 2 subwoofers near the backwall. They have less support from near walls. I could place all 4 subwoofers at the front wall and probably get the highest low-end reinforcement, but I think they serve better if they are positioned near the backwall instead of the front wall.

I have set the LFE-Reference to the subwoofer with the highest energy in the low end.

I guess it is not a big deal but I wonder why ART refuses to correct the response down to 20hz? It looks weird on the graphs like I have done something wrong.

 

[Aaronb1138]

Does anybody have an idea why the corrected ART result has a steep roll-off at around 22hz instead of 20hz? There is clearly energy below 22 hz for two subwoofers and all 4 subs are rated down to 19hz(-3db).

I can't really change the position of the other 2 subwoofers near the backwall. They have less support from near walls. I could place all 4 subwoofers at the front wall and probably get the highest low-end reinforcement, but I think they serve better if they are positioned near the backwall instead of the front wall.

I have set the LFE-Reference to the subwoofer with the highest energy in the low end.

I guess it is not a big deal but I wonder why ART refuses to correct the response down to 20hz? It looks weird on the graphs like I have done something wrong.

Lower frequencies need more taps from the DSP and probably better to cut there than to lose correction influence higher up.

Also, it's likely the distortion at that frequency, size of the room, and distance of the subs makes correction not particularly effective. You're talking about a wavelength 56 feet long, it's not exactly propagating in most rooms.

 

[R4pture]

Ok, so I finally did some listening tests and as picky as I am, there are some issues that I have with ART (atleast in my room). But there are also some really good things that I have to write about it first.

I have not taken my time to remeasure everything. I have used my latest dirac file and switched from DLBC to ART.

So the first thing that I have noticed is the "tighter" bass. Some songs with low end bass around 20-30hz sound much better to me. That is truly amazing. However, I already liked the result of DLBC and the addition of 2 extra subwoofers (switching from 2 to 4) was already a big (subjective) improvement.

My knowledge about REW is limited and I really don't understand some of the graphs that I can display. However, I think the basic waterfall-diagram shows the effect of ART really well. I also just want to focus on the main listening position.

This is currently with DLBC (Stereo -> FL + FR + 4 Subwoofers):

This is with ART enabled:

I can't somehow align the scaling of both diagrams but I think the difference between DLBC and ART is clearly visible.

It is important to know, that no speaker in my system is supporting the subwoofers. I don't have full range speakers in my system that could potentially support my subwoofers. I think this is the result of the subwoofers supporting each other. On the upper end above I think 80hz, I can't really tell what ART is doing to optimize my FL and FR speaker. Every speaker in my system including the subwoofers are currently supporting my front speakers (7.4 system) and this brings me to my first issue with ART.

I can clearly hear "Support"-Sound coming from my surround speakers. I have already limited the upper support to just 100hz for all 4 surround speakers. It got better, but it is still audible and I can clearly locate from where it is coming from. For most songs it is not audible but there are some exceptions. The first 10 seconds of the song "Derezzed" from Daft Punk is a good example for audible Support-Sound, atleast for my case. The distance between the main listening position and my surrounds are somewhat 1.6 meters. This might not be an issue for bigger rooms. I probably have to reduce the upper support range, reduce the support strength or maybe even disable the support from the surround speakers. I have hoped the integration of ART into my system would be as easy as DLBC but I guess this was wishful thinking.

The next issue is about changing the target curve for the bass. Maybe I don't understand the basic concept, but I have some problems. I like the bass quiet hot, so I want a good uplift in bass. For DLBC I just have to increase the bass for the subwoofer-group and I got stronger bass around and below the crossover-area for the main speakers. I tried the same with ART. I added all my targetcurves for each speaker-group and I thought that was it. This is the result (same targetcurves for DLBC and ART):

It somehow takes the curve for the stereo speaker group (in stereo listening mode on the denon receiver) and no matter how much I boost my subwoofer-group, there is basically no change or atleast not a significant difference. If you add +10 db above 30 hz you would think that this will be applied (with limits of course)? It somewhat does in DLBC, but why not in ART? This is just an early observation.

By adding a much more aggressiv curve for the front speaker group, we can get closer to the blue DLBC curve above:

You can see, that my front speakers (XTZ Cinema M6) really can't create lots of bass below 80hz.

The yellow curve is what Dirac ART thinks is the current corrected result (this comes really close to the measured orange graph in REW).

Here is the measured difference in green when I calculate and export the new target curve for the front speakers (no way the added bass comes from the front speakers):

Not sure what to do to come a bit closer to the measured blue curve. The added curves on dirac are already pretty aggressive, so just add more bass to the stereo speaker group?

There are some things to still untangle here. However, I really enjoyed listening to music with ART enabled while writing this comment.

Not sure if I will like ART with heavy hitting movie content. I could potentielly miss the effect of the room mode around 25hz, which ART kind of removes. But for listening to music, this is already a well worth upgrade.

Hope you can get something out of the stuff I have presented.

 

[R4pture]

Lower frequencies need more taps from the DSP and probably better to cut there than to lose correction influence higher up.

Also, it's likely the distortion at that frequency, size of the room, and distance of the subs makes correction not particularly effective. You're talking about a wavelength 56 feet long, it's not exactly propagating in most rooms.

Thanks for your reply. I think you are right. I might need to research more to fully understand all of it.

ART definitely removes the effect of my lowest measured room mode around 25hz. The mode always had a gigantic effect on the measured low frequency response. Removing that effect also removes the low end extension caused by the mode. I guess. Not sure if that is good for movie watching.

 

[SDC]

D&M to read through with respect to 96 support ch limitation? Some models do up to 9.4.6.

I got no offical paper but A1H user in Korea reported it has 94 channels in his A1H.

I assumed they will be 96 because same DSP chip, but guess they have less power left in the A1h for the 9.1.6 support.

edit:
I got 96 support channel from 4800h with 7.1.4 system using 4 subs.
Other member got 94 support channel from A1h with 7.1.6 system using 4 subs.
I think it might be that the overall channel limit is same but as default channel increases support channel decreases.
---

I can clearly hear "Support"-Sound coming from my surround speakers.

IMO I think it would be okay to lower the support channel even more if you find it disturbing.

The plot shows you have clean output at 100-200hz range even without ART, maybe other channels could differ.

And you can change the strength of ART support channels. Default is -18dB, to weaken the support by increasing the number to -12 or -6.

It can't be seen in the waterfall but DLBC has tendency of sacrificing Group Delay, easily audible because it increases significantly.
ART fixed that issue, almost linear phase down to 20~30hz. (It would be kind of them to fix the DLBC with the ART subwoofer algorithm but don't think it's gonna happen.)

So maybe reducing the support channel strength and lowering the upper limit to get that tight bass with reasonable decay improvement might be better for your case? ART has so much more things to tinker compared to DLBC. I think it will take days to dial in the best result for me.

 

[Oddball]

Ok, so I finally did some listening tests and as picky as I am, there are some issues that I have with ART (atleast in my room). But there are also some really good things that I have to write about it first.

I have not taken my time to remeasure everything. I have used my latest dirac file and switched from DLBC to ART.

So the first thing that I have noticed is the "tighter" bass. Some songs with low end bass around 20-30hz sound much better to me. That is truly amazing. However, I already liked the result of DLBC and the addition of 2 extra subwoofers (switching from 2 to 4) was already a big (subjective) improvement.

My knowledge about REW is limited and I really don't understand some of the graphs that I can display. However, I think the basic waterfall-diagram shows the effect of ART really well. I also just want to focus on the main listening position.

This is currently with DLBC (Stereo -> FL + FR + 4 Subwoofers):
View attachment 479897

This is with ART enabled:

View attachment 479898

I can't somehow align the scaling of both diagrams but I think the difference between DLBC and ART is clearly visible.

It is important to know, that no speaker in my system is supporting the subwoofers. I don't have full range speakers in my system that could potentially support my subwoofers. I think this is the result of the subwoofers supporting each other. On the upper end above I think 80hz, I can't really tell what ART is doing to optimize my FL and FR speaker. Every speaker in my system including the subwoofers are currently supporting my front speakers (7.4 system) and this brings me to my first issue with ART.

I can clearly hear "Support"-Sound coming from my surround speakers. I have already limited the upper support to just 100hz for all 4 surround speakers. It got better, but it is still audible and I can clearly locate from where it is coming from. For most songs it is not audible but there are some exceptions. The first 10 seconds of the song "Derezzed" from Daft Punk is a good example for audible Support-Sound, atleast for my case. The distance between the main listening position and my surrounds are somewhat 1.6 meters. This might not be an issue for bigger rooms. I probably have to reduce the upper support range, reduce the support strength or maybe even disable the support from the surround speakers. I have hoped the integration of ART into my system would be as easy as DLBC but I guess this was wishful thinking.

The next issue is about changing the target curve for the bass. Maybe I don't understand the basic concept, but I have some problems. I like the bass quiet hot, so I want a good uplift in bass. For DLBC I just have to increase the bass for the subwoofer-group and I got stronger bass around and below the crossover-area for the main speakers. I tried the same with ART. I added all my targetcurves for each speaker-group and I thought that was it. This is the result (same targetcurves for DLBC and ART):

View attachment 479907

It somehow takes the curve for the stereo speaker group (in stereo listening mode on the denon receiver) and no matter how much I boost my subwoofer-group, there is basically no change or atleast not a significant difference. If you add +10 db above 30 hz you would think that this will be applied (with limits of course)? It somewhat does in DLBC, but why not in ART? This is just an early observation.

By adding a much more aggressiv curve for the front speaker group, we can get closer to the blue DLBC curve above:

View attachment 479911

You can see, that my front speakers (XTZ Cinema M6) really can't create lots of bass below 80hz.

The yellow curve is what Dirac ART thinks is the current corrected result (this comes really close to the measured orange graph in REW).

Here is the measured difference in green when I calculate and export the new target curve for the front speakers (no way the added bass comes from the front speakers):

View attachment 479912

Not sure what to do to come a bit closer to the measured blue curve. The added curves on dirac are already pretty aggressive, so just add more bass to the stereo speaker group?

There are some things to still untangle here. However, I really enjoyed listening to music with ART enabled while writing this comment.

Not sure if I will like ART with heavy hitting movie content. I could potentielly miss the effect of the room mode around 25hz, which ART kind of removes. But for listening to music, this is already a well worth upgrade.

Hope you can get something out of the stuff I have presented.

Apologies for not having the answers for your questions - just did not have time to dig into Dirac, and might not for some time.

For support signals, you can obviously reduce the intensity or if that does not work exclude them from support group. But would expect that lowest level support would effectively do that. For 22hz rolloff did that come with infrasonic sub option checked (and do you really want that)? Otherwise, filters sometimes can't really correct all you want which would be normal for e.g. Audy or REW filters.

I do have a question, might sound stupid, but it was kicked around for years waiting for this very moment. Apparently ART in the past supported only one main sub and then was treating the rest of the subs as support and that was later on fixed in later versions of Storm's ART implementation. It was always a question how will D&M implement or if Dirac fixed this themselves. So can you pls check if all of your subs are active as main subs? And if so, how did you achieve that? On another forum a member with 2 subs and only one group for them reports that only one of the two subs is active as main sub.

Many thanks for your help in advance.

 

[ofc]

I just got the notification via email from Dirac that ART is available for my Denon AVR.

But I am quite disappointed that this time there is no introductory offer for existing customers. I have purchased every single license individually (Dirac Live, DLBC) which means I have continuously supported the company over the past years and contributed to it's revenues (which also somehow funded the development of ART). Now the Dirac Full + DLBC + ART bundle is available at a lower price than what I payed by purchasing the licenses individually at their respective launch. That's not what I would call customer appreciation... Or does anybody know if there is a coupon code for existing customers that I have missed?

 

[David_Alexander]

I just got the notification via email from Dirac that ART is available for my Denon AVR.

But I am quite disappointed that this time there is no introductory offer for existing customers. I have purchased every single license individually (Dirac Live, DLBC) which means I have continuously supported the company over the past years and contributed to it's revenues (which also somehow funded the development of ART). Now the Dirac Full + DLBC + ART bundle is available at a lower price than what I payed by purchasing the licenses individually at their respective launch. That's not what I would call customer appreciation... Or does anybody know if there is a coupon code for existing customers that I have missed?

I'd be certainly be asking the question. When DLBC was launched for Denon it was delayed, and so outside of the BF offers. To compensate for this Dirac gave an introductory offer promo code which was sent to my email (I assume they know who holds what licenses in a database). I would hope they do similar for ART or do we just wait for BF in the hope that the individual license will be discounted 30% as normal for BF week? Below is what they sent out after the DLBC launch.

 

[jtatknox]

I'd be certainly be asking the question. When DLBC was launched for Denon it was delayed, and so outside of the BF offers. To compensate for this Dirac gave an introductory offer promo code which was sent to my email (I assume they know who holds what licenses in a database). I would hope they do similar for ART or do we just wait for BF in the hope that the individual license will be discounted 30% as normal for BF week? Below is what they sent out after the DLBC launch.

View attachment 479979

I agree with this argument - I paid for the old multi-sub DLBC license. That said I bit the bullet since I have been waiting for this product for so damn long anyway.