Dirac ART is now running on beta FW for Denon Xx800H AVRs!

[Sal1950]

200 is the price level for the D&M MultEQ-X application..Roughly speaking the equivalent of the base Dirac Live, but from the Audyssey family.

Hun? Dirac Live is $349, with Bass it's another $300.

Audyssey without the app is still capable and included in the D&M processors

You'd be amazed at what can be accomplished with the $20 Editor app buy useing a android emulator to run it on a PC so you don't have to try and adjust curves with your finger on a phone screen.
There are also some freeware stuff that will let you take it even further.

I think Dirac has out-priced themselves many times over. Bass control is just a convenient package for the ones not willing to explore cheaper alternatives.

ART is obviously tempting, but how many would spring this kind of cash - almost double what 3800H costs?

$200 is a price where they could actually see some volume in the game. Like the whole package, not just ART.

Yep, I don't mean to rap Dirac but has always been overpriced for the improvement it can offer over Audyssey.

 

[DutchJay]

I think Dirac has out-priced themselves many times over. Bass control is just a convenient package for the ones not willing to explore cheaper alternatives.

ART is obviously tempting, but how many would spring this kind of cash - almost double what 3800H costs?

$200 is a price where they could actually see some volume in the game. Like the whole package, not just ART.

Is that really true your comment about bass control? Andrew Robinson has repeatedly said that BC does a far better job than he manually can do. Whilst in the past he would always favor his manual set up vs all other room correction and that included dirac live standard package. I think he used mini dsp. While I think he knows what he is doing, he for sure has far more skills than the average joe!

 

[DutchJay]

$200 is the price level for the D&M MultEQ-X application.... Roughly speaking the equivalent of the base Dirac Live, but from the Audyssey family.
(yes you can run Audyssey without the features of the app... but a heck of a lot of people spend the extra to get the flexibility and user interface provided by the app)

Audyssey without the app is still capable and included in the D&M processors
DL is included with O&I processors

There are bass management capabilities build into both families of AVR's... so many people won't need to add DLBC

But there are things that DLBC does in terms of integrating multiple subs with mains that the base bass management built into the AVR's don't do.

They are particularly valuable to those running multiple subs.

And people running multiple subs, have often paid extra for additional software/hardware to integrate them properly ...

I would not pay extra for DLBC, as I doubt it would provided substantial value in my 5.1.4 setup.

ART on the other hand has the potential to provide audible improvements...
It will most likely cost 50% of the price of an AVR...
So whether it provides value, is definitely up to the individual, but many of us are chomping at the bit to try it out.
I may not be willing to spend the big bucks to step into a Storm/Trinnov/AV10 level processor..... but I am willing to spend for something like an X3800 + Dirac ART.... or an RZ70 + Dirac ART.

We will see where the market is at later this year!

Once it is out on D&M... there will be pressure for JBL, Arcam, NAD, Onkyo, Integra, Monoprice, and others who are partnering with Dirac, to provide ART capabilities.... How slowly or quickly these come to market is a different question - and D&M may well trade on that!

I did buy DLBC and compared it to the standard dirac live set up on my 3800h in a 5.1.4 set up. It did make very big diff! Base is higher, far better integrated with my mains and it hits harder, with control.

If I were in your shoes I would upgrade to BC first and later compare that to ART.

 

[dlaloum]

I did buy DLBC and compared it to the standard dirac live set up on my 3800h in a 5.1.4 set up. It did make very big diff! Base is higher, far better integrated with my mains and it hits harder, with control.

If I were in your shoes I would upgrade to BC first and later compare that to ART.

My current AVR had DL, but no option for DLBC.

So trying it would require a processor upgrade.... and I'm not going to do that until I know the lay of the land with ART - I want to make sure that the new AVR can take ART.

So that might be a plan for early next year... or maybe later this year.

I also run full range speakers for my base layer - so I really want ART which can leverage that, rather than DLBC which doesn't!

 

[DutchJay]

My current AVR had DL, but no option for DLBC.

So trying it would require a processor upgrade.... and I'm not going to do that until I know the lay of the land with ART - I want to make sure that the new AVR can take ART.

So that might be a plan for early next year... or maybe later this year.

I also run full range speakers for my base layer - so I really want ART which can leverage that, rather than DLBC which doesn't!

Okay, I understand.

This is exactly why I want ART: to leverage my arendal 1723s towers bass capabilities. Excited to see what that will yield in REW measurements!

 

[Sal1950]

I also run full range speakers for my base layer - so I really want ART which can leverage that, rather than DLBC which doesn't!

I've no actual experience with it but doesn't DLBC control base speakers FR, timing, etc?

 

[dlaloum]

I've no actual experience with it but doesn't DLBC control base speakers FR, timing, etc?

From what I can tell from reading the Dirac forums, it tends to cross over the main speakers, and focuses on optimising the subs...

It doesn't leverage the bass capabilities of the base layer speakers.

I have 4 full range speakers in my 5.1.4 setup.... I'd much rather make use of their abilities fully, and avoid needing to clutter the place with subs!

 

[Sal1950]

From what I can tell from reading the Dirac forums, it tends to cross over the main speakers, and focuses on optimising the subs...

It doesn't leverage the bass capabilities of the base layer speakers.

I have 4 full range speakers in my 5.1.4 setup.... I'd much rather make use of their abilities fully, and avoid needing to clutter the place with subs!

I understand that, I have 5 full range base speakers also.
Not sure what you mean by "doesn't leverage the bass capabilities of the base layer" ?
They should be compensated for distance and have the response smoothed within reason, aren't they?

 

[Oddball]

I understand that, I have 5 full range base speakers also.
Not sure what you mean by "doesn't leverage the bass capabilities of the base layer" ?
They should be compensated for distance and have the response smoothed within reason, aren't they?

Bass control or formerly DLBC, is based on crossover. So at one point you have to cut it and that works well for smaller systems e.g. bookshelves and subs with 80/90/100hz crossover. With bigger speakers it forces you into compromise around the crossover. 60hz and you are missing a whole lot of sub bass as subs will fully phase in at e.g. 40hz. 80hz and you are really not using your bigger speakers to their full potential.

Audy provides more flexibility as it will allow you to run bigger speakers and subs in parallel. LFE+Main. There are many ways to implement this and some might result in what people refer to as "double bass", but on the other hand it could equally be called creating your house curve. This allows correction of the bigger speakers by subs in the overlap range which is valuable. It really is quite complicated once you get to this level and could take quite some time to tune it in properly. Then there is the LFE distribution that also helps to smooth out the LFE response by using bigger speakers as smaller subs.

ART is ditching the crossover concept and arguably trying to achieve what LFE+Main was doing, only better and much more precise.

 

[Sal1950]

Bass control or formerly DLBC, is based on crossover. So at one point you have to cut it and that works well for smaller systems e.g. bookshelves and subs with 80/90/100hz crossover. With bigger speakers it forces you into compromise around the crossover. 60hz and you are missing a whole lot of sub bass as subs will fully phase in at e.g. 40hz. 80hz and you are really not using your bigger speakers to their full potential.

I fully admit I'm total ignorant of the Dirac systems. Are you talking about running DLBC without the Dirac Live package installed? I thought is was a given that they would always be run as a package? I'm trying to reconcile how this system is operation next to Audyssey?

 

[Oddball]

Is that really true your comment about bass control? Andrew Robinson has repeatedly said that BC does a far better job than he manually can do. Whilst in the past he would always favor his manual set up vs all other room correction and that included dirac live standard package. I think he used mini dsp. While I think he knows what he is doing, he for sure has far more skills than the average joe!

I would not quote AR on this site as AR stands for exactly the opposite from the premisses people follow around here. AR's skills are mostly to get likes and Youtube cash. While he had the opportunity to test more gear than most of us will have in several lifetimes, his method of evaluation is purely subjective.

There is this whole concept of BC doing something magical, which is entirely wrong. It is a good algo that in some circumstances can phase align all your speakers. But that is not in every room or every setup. And the magic is really to see the response in REW charts and align to your liking, not to what a robot tells you. That requires that you actually have a preference, as opposed to what someone else tells you the preference is.

 

[Oddball]

I fully admit I'm total ignorant of the Dirac systems. Are you talking about running DLBC without the Dirac Live package installed? I thought is was a given that they would always be run as a package? I'm trying to reconcile how this system is operation next to Audyssey?

You can't run DLBC without Dirac Live, but can run Dirac Live without DLBC. So DLBC is additional module on top of Dirac Live. And then comes ART on top of both.

Audy will not be as good out of the box as DLBC, but with some elbow grease will get there, or beyond. As I noted above, bass management in Audy is much more diverse than a simple DLBC. So with $200 for MultiEQ-X, you do get much more than for Dirac Live+DLBC, but there will be additional time required to tune it in.

 

[Sal1950]

You can't run DLBC without Dirac Live, but can run Dirac Live without DLBC.

Yea thats what I figured, just got confused by the dialoum's post.

So with $200 for MultiEQ-X, you do get much more than for Dirac Live+DLBC, but there will be additional time required to tune it in.

That and a UMIK + REW to see whats the results really are.

 

[Oddball]

Same true for Dirac or Trinnov. What you put in as requests in your curve is not what comes out. It usually requires (many) iterative adjustments.

Or just call in the guy to calibrate the system and live a happy life .

 

[Frank207be]

Audy will not be as good out of the box as DLBC, but with some elbow grease will get there, or beyond. As I noted above, bass management in Audy is much more diverse than a simple DLBC. So with $200 for MultiEQ-X, you do get much more than for Dirac Live+DLBC, but there will be additional time required to tune it in.

True but DLBC gives a more consistent result over multiple seats and much faster than Audyssey MultEQ-X that needs a lot of tinkering/uploading/REW verification steps. Quite important when watching movies together with the wife.

You mention LFE+Main for Audyssey but I don't trust it with my life as I like to keep my Focal speakers intact. I use a 70Hz DLBC crossover for music and 100Hz for raw power with movies.

Another plus for Dirac is that you can switch between 3 curves and OFF from the options menu. MultEQ-X can store different curves for reference and flat but for switching between both you need to dive into the audio menu. Obviously with Audyssey only you can choose between preset1 and preset2.

Discussion about price is understandable but I see ART as an alternative for an ugly treated room so for me the money is well spent IF the results are within expectation.

 

[DutchJay]

I would not quote AR on this site as AR stands for exactly the opposite from the premisses people follow around here. AR's skills are mostly to get likes and Youtube cash. While he had the opportunity to test more gear than most of us will have in several lifetimes, his method of evaluation is purely subjective.

There is this whole concept of BC doing something magical, which is entirely wrong. It is a good algo that in some circumstances can phase align all your speakers. But that is not in every room or every setup. And the magic is really to see the response in REW charts and align to your liking, not to what a robot tells you. That requires that you actually have a preference, as opposed to what someone else tells you the preference is.

Not quote him for having a different review approach? That nonsense.

You or most of ASR might disagree with his approach, but that does not change the fact that he has a good handle on REW and mini dsp subwoofer integration. I follow him for a long time and know his skills (soft and hard).

I think DLBC is more that what you say. But fine to disagree on that, just wanted to put it out there.

 

[Oddball]

True but DLBC gives a more consistent result over multiple seats and much faster than Audyssey MultEQ-X that needs a lot of tinkering/uploading/REW verification steps. Quite important when watching movies together with the wife.

You mention LFE+Main for Audyssey but I don't trust it with my life as I like to keep my Focal speakers intact. I use a 70Hz DLBC crossover for music and 100Hz for raw power with movies.

Another plus for Dirac is that you can switch between 3 curves and OFF from the options menu. MultEQ-X can store different curves for reference and flat but for switching between both you need to dive into the audio menu. Obviously with Audyssey only you can choose between preset1 and preset2.

Discussion about price is understandable but I see ART as an alternative for an ugly treated room so for me the money is well spent IF the results are within expectation.

Dirac also needs REW verification, like any other room EQ system. Audy needs a bit more as not attempting to phase align, but then once you are at it it's not really so invasive. You just figure out what's wrong, if any, and fix it.

Audio menu on D&M is available through web interface, so takes seconds to tweak it - for both Audy or Dirac.

As you note, we are yet to see what ART will do for our setups.

 

[Frank207be]

Dirac also needs REW verification, like any other room EQ system. Audy needs a bit more as not attempting to phase align, but then once you are at it it's not really so invasive. You just figure out what's wrong, if any, and fix it.

Audio menu on D&M is available through web interface, so takes seconds to tweak it - for both Audy or Dirac.

As you note, we are yet to see what ART will do for our setups.

Partially agree.

The response of the normal remote control is much faster. The web interface needs to wake up and reconnect after the smartphone goes to sleep what's annoying.

At least with 4 subs Audyssey keeps neutering the bass even with settings the 75dB subwoofer level before calibration a bit hot. Dirac simply does a better job with a fresh measurement in this regard.

Keeping both Audyssey and Dirac on the same AVP/AVR is another challenge with their different pre-measurement approaches.

 

[Oddball]

Audy is more shy on bass as it has DEQ, so one needs to account for that. Otherwise, quite easy to pump up the volume if you find it lacking on both platforms.

If you have 4 subs, you might want to try DBA which is not going to happen either with Audy or Dirac as they will put all the subs in phase, which is the exactly the opposite of where the back subs should be.

 

[Frank207be]

Audy is more shy on bass as it has DEQ, so one needs to account for that. Otherwise, quite easy to pump up the volume if you find it lacking on both platforms.

If you have 4 subs, you might want to try DBA which is not going to happen either with Audy or Dirac as they will put all the subs in phase, which is the exactly the opposite of where the back subs should be.

We tried DEQ a few times but it always gets disabled. We always listen at medium level and sometimes a bit higher and it always sounds better without DEQ.

Increasing bass on both Audy and Dirac eats away infrasonic as boost only starts around 20Hz and I like a solid extension to 10Hz. Might have to add a MiniDSP on my front subs for that?

DBA would demand too much attention in our L-shaped living room. All DIY sealed subs are hidden: 6x 15" in the front sub behind a wall and 4x 21'" + 2x 18" + 4x 15" in a cinema riser. This bunch already sounds very impressive but ART needs to tame the room modes without destroying the visceral impact.