Dirac ART for 2-Channel Stereo Music

[Keith_W]

I added ART today to my setup (running on MacOS through a plugin on JRiver). Maybe it is my room / speakers, but it's hardly night and day. Switching between a non-ART filter and an ART filter, the only difference I'm getting is maybe some cleaner bass. But I am not confident that I would crush a blind. I might just be hearing the $300.

Caution: If you aren't paying attention, ART would have high passed my full range mains at 150hz, even though I have no subs.

That's why ART isn't making much of a difference for you. Two speakers and no subs (or even two full range speakers and some surround speakers that don't go low) = not enough "support speakers" to make bass corrections. ART can not change the laws of physics. It would work better if you had more bass sources. Maybe acquire some subs and try again.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Caution: If you aren't paying attention, ART would have high passed my full range mains at 150hz, even though I have no subs.

HIghly suspicious. Warrants another attempt.

 

[PatentLawyer]

That's why ART isn't making much of a difference for you. Two speakers and no subs (or even two full range speakers and some surround speakers that don't go low) = not enough "support speakers" to make bass corrections. ART can not change the laws of physics. It would work better if you had more bass sources. Maybe acquire some subs and try again.

I don't need subs -- my mains go down to 20hz, so I'm not interested in buying subs just for ART.

 

[PatentLawyer]

HIghly suspicious. Warrants another attempt.

At least on the MacOS version, the correction window for ART is really narrow and I had to expand it down to 20 Hz. That's how I calculated my filters.

 

[Keith_W]

I don't need subs -- my mains go down to 20hz, so I'm not interested in buying subs just for ART.

Doesn't have to be for ART. It is highly unlikely that you'll have a flat response down to 20Hz without subs or DSP. If all of us had that, then none of us would use subs or DSP.

 

[PatentLawyer]

Very sorry to hear that!
Well, the difference HAS to be on the bass, Art don't operate over 150hz (it's just normal room correction over that). What kind of music do you listen? If there is not much bass in the content it's impossible to spot

P.s. very strange about the the high pass. In my system it offloaded some bass from the mains but they still go pretty deep (I tried muting the subs to hear what the mains were reproducing)

I've played a few tracks now with deep bass and I'm changing my tune a little bit. I'm more bullish than I was my last post.

 

[PatentLawyer]

Doesn't have to be for ART. It is highly unlikely that you'll have a flat response down to 20Hz without subs or DSP. If all of us had that, then none of us would use subs or DSP.

I was running Dirac before adding ART, so I'm comparing Dirac with and without ART. Seemed like I had most of bass problems in hand with Dirac. Now that I'm focusing on tracks with deep bass my impression of ART is changing a bit. I have two weeks to decide...

 

[SGiniS]

Nice! For sure (other than more subs) the less the room is bad the less art can make a difference. Once you are sure it's working, If I was you, I would just enjoy listening to music for a few days. Like nothing have changed to let the "new gear" effect cool down and get used to a different room correction. After that, you can start comparing again with less placebo effect and really evaluate if it's worth it for you (some may even like a less dry bass because it feel "stronger")

 

[TonyYu]

I don't need subs -- my mains go down to 20hz, so I'm not interested in buying subs just for ART.

ART works better with 2.1 or 2.2 configurations than 2.0. It's not a matter of how low of your mains go. It's a matter of number of supporting speakers used to offset standing wave in your room.

Have you ever measured your room's response at your listening position with REW (or something similar)? Even your speaker's specification goes down to 20Hz, it doesn't mean your room having smooth bass response.

 

[PatentLawyer]

ART works better with 2.1 or 2.2 configurations than 2.0. It's not a matter of how low of your mains go. It's a matter of number of supporting speakers used to offset standing wave in your room.

Have you measured your room response at your listening position with REW (or something similar)? Even your speaker's specification goes down to 20Hz, it doesn't mean your room having smooth bass response.

For my system, I choose not to use subwoofers. Using that as an assumption, I have still enjoyed improvements with ART as I go through tracks with deep bass.

My in room response is sub 20 hz before Dirac.

 

[TonyYu]

For my system, I choose not to use subwoofers. Using that as an assumption, I have still enjoyed improvements with ART as I go through tracks with deep bass.

My in room response is sub 20 hz before Dirac.

ART can still work with 2.0 configuration. It simple uses front-L supporting front-R, and vice versa, though it's not very efficient. Your speaker/room response down to 20Hz does NOT mean smooth bass response. Most of untreated rooms don't have smooth bass response regardless how low can the speakers go.

If you take a look of the frequency response graph (yellow line) before ART in my previous post, it's around +21dB at 48Hz, but -13dB at 98Hz. My KEF's frequency response is down to 30Hz before ART, but the bass is boomy and muddy depending on the music tracks. Some tracks' bass might sound very punchy (when hitting 48Hz peak), but some are almost non-exist (when hitting 98Hz null).

Can you share with us your room's measurement if you want to drill down the problem?

 

[AudioJester]

Does ART allow a subwoofer to be used purely as a support speaker in a 2.0 setup?
Ie no low/high pass between left/right and sub

 

[PatentLawyer]

ART can still work with 2.0 configuration. It simple uses front-L supporting front-R, and vice versa, though it's not very efficient. Your speaker/room response down to 20Hz does NOT mean smooth bass response. Most of untreated rooms don't have smooth bass response regardless how low can the speakers go.

If you take a look of the frequency response graph (yellow line) before ART in my previous post, it's around +21dB at 48Hz, but -13dB at 98Hz. My KEF's frequency response is down to 30Hz before ART, but the bass is boomy and muddy depending on the music tracks. Some tracks' bass might sound very punchy (when hitting 48Hz peak), but some are almost non-exist (when hitting 98Hz null).

Can you share with us your room's measurement if you want to drill down the problem?

I am not having a problem, but I appreciate your interest. It might have got lost in the thread but I have been using Dirac for some time (and addressing my room modes well) and I am simply contemplating whether to keep ART past the free trial.

 

[Satanica]

Does ART allow a subwoofer to be used purely as a support speaker in a 2.0 setup?
Ie no low/high pass between left/right and sub

I think the overall answer to your question is no. But, there is no direct user specified crossovers in ART. If you are familiar with Dirac Bass Management and/or Bass control, the direct crossover function is gone. Based on the specified user parameters, ART will decide how speakers and subwoofer(s) are used to achieve a result.

 

[Satanica]

I am not having a problem, but I appreciate your interest. It might have got lost in the thread but I have been using Dirac for some time (and addressing my room modes well) and I am simply contemplating whether to keep ART past the free trial.

And that's fair enough, plain Dirac Live especially in a 2.0 is seemingly going to give the biggest improvement jump from no digital bass correction at all.

 

[TonyYu]

Does ART allow a subwoofer to be used purely as a support speaker in a 2.0 setup?
Ie no low/high pass between left/right and sub

ART does not use cross-over concept, thus there is no low/high pass between mains and sub. Instead of cross-over, ART uses F-support Low/High frequency and Support level.

If you prefer using subwoofer purely as support speaker in 2.0 setup, you may "disable" mains to support subwoofer. Imagine, you have only front-group and subwoofer-group, but ART requires minimum 1 support group (i.e. front-group) to support subwoofer-group, thus you couldn't simply uncheck front-group. I think you can work around this by setting the front-group support to minimal, such as Support level to -1dB and F-support Low/High to 1Hz as shown below.

Anyway, there is no LFE/subwoofer signal for 2-channel music. Thus, it probably makes no difference regardless you "disable" mains supporting subwoofer.

 

[Joaquinín]

ART does not use cross-over concept, thus there is no low/high pass between mains and sub. Instead of cross-over, ART uses F-support Low/High frequency and Support level.

If you prefer using subwoofer purely as support speaker in 2.0 setup, you may "disable" mains to support subwoofer. Imagine, you have only front-group and subwoofer-group, but ART requires minimum 1 support group (i.e. front-group) to support subwoofer-group, thus you couldn't simply uncheck front-group. I think you can work around this by setting the front-group support to minimal, such as Support level to -1dB and F-support Low/High to 1Hz as shown below.

Anyway, there is no LFE/subwoofer signal for 2-channel music. Thus, it probably makes no difference regardless you "disable" mains supporting subwoofer.

View attachment 543410

Well, that is not really the case of what ART is doing in my setup. JRiver's Analyzer allows me to "see" it in real time. I have a 4.1 configuration (Front speakers F-support Low at 80 hz, rear speakers F-support Low at 85 kz). When hearing stereo tracks (no upmix, just Dirac ART), it is very clear that ART is not just using the subwoofer and the back speakers to "support" (reducing distortion of) the front L/R speakers. It is also, very clearly, crossing over the bass and sending most of it to the subwoofer, who does all the heavy work in the bass region and takes that load off from the main speakers. Basically, the same as in Dirac LBC. As my L/R speakers F-support Low is set at 80 hz, I think ART understands those are not big speakers and uses the subwoofer in a typical bass management function, crossing them over at 80 hz (or 85 hz for the rear pair).

 

[TheKoC]

Well, that is not really the case of what ART is doing in my setup. JRiver's Analyzer allows me to "see" it in real time. I have a 4.1 configuration (Front speakers F-support Low at 80 hz, rear speakers F-support Low at 85 kz). When hearing stereo tracks (no upmix, just Dirac ART), it is very clear that ART is not just using the subwoofer and the back speakers to "support" (reducing distortion of) the front L/R speakers. It is also, very clearly, crossing over the bass and sending most of it to the subwoofer, who does all the heavy work in the bass region and takes that load off from the main speakers. Basically, the same as in Dirac LBC. As my L/R speakers F-support Low is set at 80 hz, I think ART understands those are not big speakers and uses the subwoofer in a typical bass management function, crossing them over at 80 hz (or 85 hz for the rear pair).

Yes, ART determines which speaker(s) is most capable in which frequency area, and distributes the Load accordingly. If the the main speakers roll of 10 dB at 60 Hz for example, ART distribution might look very similar to a "classical" crossover at that point.
I found it important to cross-check what ART determined with what the speaker is acutally capable of, and do the measurement sweeps at a high enough volume (I took my back sorrounds out of the support for other speakers for example, because they are just not capable enough, ART suggested the usual 50Hz support by default).

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Does ART allow a subwoofer to be used purely as a support speaker in a 2.0 setup?
Ie no low/high pass between left/right and sub

Yes. Simply select "Stereo" in the custom channel configuration menu and, then, click on "Add subwoofer," one or more times. Do not select "2.1."

 

[AudioJester]

Yes. Simply select "Stereo" in the custom channel configuration menu and, then, click on "Add subwoofer," one or more times. Do not select "2.1."

Thank, thats a simple elegant solution for my stereo setup.