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Diminishing returns in the higher end

RichT

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I'll throw my 2 cents into the wishing well.

I design drivers and finished systems and have since 1989.

Was a pretty accomplished musician years ago and still have perfect pitch. I notice things. And also can get fooled. Go figure on that!

So diminishing returns.

Not flogging any brand is number one.

Number two is most people listen with their eyes. That's a sad consequence really.

Importance of what you listen to.

If you like small ensemble jazz or classical, not to loud. Well there are a lot of speakers that do this exceedingly well. Even under $500. I have been humbled quite a few times working on a uber driver that is over $200 ex factory chasing changes that are noticeable. And then listened to very inexpensive drivers, I mean under $20 a piece that really sound pretty good!

No replacement for displacement.

If you want to go low and want it loud. There are precious few 6 or 8 inch sized drivers that have the X-max to do it justice. And that sums up the preponderance of available expensive high end loudspeakers. A few small drivers that are ok to about 45 hertz. If you are looking for lower you need something more.

Why do Ultra highend companies not publish measurements?

Many times they are that different from a great many other speakers. They are selling sizzle, not the steak.

Some other things to take note of.

Loudspeaker driver motor type does make a difference.

For one client we have gone from overhung small gap long coil, to XVL^2 to underhung short coil long gap. What does this mean? The area that the magnetic energy is concentrated in is either very small as in an overhung motor or very large as in an underhung motor.

What are the differences?

Distortion. There are distortions that are inherent in the overhung motor type. That are not present in a properly designed underhung.

Previously mentioned client called me up at the first listen to the underhung and told me something I will never forget.

He used the same piece of music to critique his speakers for over 30 years. Not only one, but this one was his litmus test. What blew him away was somebody moved. He turned to see who it was. Nobody there. It turned out to be a music stand was bumped and picked up by the recording mics.
Incredulous was I. So I asked. Same recording on the previous model? And did you hear it? He had an A/B system setup. And a blind switch operator. He could hear it on the new drivers, but not the old XBL^2 drivers.

Masked. The finer details were masked by nonlinearities that are a part of the relationship between the voice coil acting as an electromagnet and the permanents magnetic fields in the dual gap XBL motor. These distortions are there in all drivers. But are less there in underhung driver motors. There are quite a few papers that demonstrate this very effectively. So why don't we see this type of motor used more? Cost. Plain and simple. It costs a lot to make a good underhung motor versus a overhung motor that will essentially do the same thing. And loudspeakers are all about profit. To truly understand the cost of what is inside even the most expensive loudspeaker systems will shock you. Magico is a great example. Morel and Accuton make their drivers. And they are Ok drivers. But take them apart and compare them to many others and there is not that much difference. There is no truly secret sauce. There is good engineering. Sometimes the expense and the engineering meet and shake hands. And it works. Sometimes you are being sold the sizzle. Close your eyes and listen. You might be a little surprised.

Speakers are quite simple. Play with magnets and like poles repel, different pole N,S attract. Nothing magical about them. Your amplifier delivers voltage that is sent to a coil of wire that creates a magnetic filed and depending on the polarity of the voltage the cone moves forward or reward.

The biggest differences are what happens to the static magnet field in the motor. The one that is energized by the Ferrite, or Neodymium magnet.
Most amplifiers are quite capable of sending an acceptably low distortion signal. And most loudspeakers are actually pretty good at reproducing that signal with acceptable fidelity.

The diminishing return on my end of the loudspeaker is how well I can chase and exorcise those evil little distortions.

That being done. How I voice the crossover and apply the driver to their best effect.

2 cents over and out.
Fantastic stuff, so what companies use underhung drivers and what do these drivers look like? Kind regards
 

audiofooled

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BINGO!

That is what I try to accomplish. Many well documented psycho acoustic tests done in North America, Europe, Japan and in Asia have verified that clean and accurate sound is readily recognizable to people of all walks of life. They simply have to know and understand what a reference true to life sound is in the first place. That has been a perennial problem for me. Some of the simplest things to do for myself working with new clients id to understand what they consider as being accurate sound. It is not that easy to do if all you have ever listened to is mono recorded pop music that is really really processed and produced.

Not saying that enjoying your tunes is wrong. Setup what ever turns your crank. But I am talking about what is true to life. And that requires true to life sounds. Midbass, a car door slamming. It's a huge transient that has frequency content that is very recognizable. Especially if it's your car door. A loved ones voice. Can't fool anybody there right. It sounds real or it doesn't. Low bass, in the right location down town or in an overpass bus stop a bus has astonishingly loud ultralow bass. Pay attention to it. Not that hard to grab a recording of it. We all have cell phones and a calibrated mic is not that difficult to plug into your cell phone. Heck Dayton sells one that is what $16 or $18 USD?

Attend a live unamplified ( key here ) concert. Understand what real room acoustics sound like. What a guitar or a trumpet sounds like. A drum set. They don't sound much like what I hear on recordings.

Anyway. Off of my soap box.

I also think that most of the people recognize what sounds good, when they have a chance to hear it. When you talk about midbass, or even midrange, imho, one small midrange driver per channel ain't gonna cut it. Arguably a mic can even record it. Have a look at this:


I know it's old stuff and probably everyone's seen it already, but if you go back and forth to compare, the difference in sound is clear. People who were actually there might have been impressed, but then again, they only listened to loudspeakers sometime after the performance was over...
My point is, we can expect only so much from stereo. Multichannel is a different story.

As for the diminishing returns, it's a law and you cannot bend it. I'm sorry about another car analogy, but performance there is expensive, even many times more for just a bit of a performance. Buying such a car and then obeying speed limits still brings some joy, doesn't it? But when we look at the aftermarket car parts industry, hardly anyone gets fooled that "this fancy gear shift lever will upgrade your car's performance". No, it's just "jewelry". A lot of it there is also in audio, but more often than not it gets marketed and sold as performance value. This is why people need to measure, and understand. If it can perform as manufacturer says and it is proven with objective measurements, then, there is real value and nothing wrong to pay a lot if you have money. Sadly, we've a long way to go...
 

Kvalsvoll

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I also think that most of the people recognize what sounds good, when they have a chance to hear it. When you talk about midbass, or even midrange, imho, one small midrange driver per channel ain't gonna cut it. Arguably a mic can even record it. Have a look at this:


I know it's old stuff and probably everyone's seen it already, but if you go back and forth to compare, the difference in sound is clear. People who were actually there might have been impressed, but then again, they only listened to loudspeakers sometime after the performance was over...
My point is, we can expect only so much from stereo. Multichannel is a different story.

As for the diminishing returns, it's a law and you cannot bend it. I'm sorry about another car analogy, but performance there is expensive, even many times more for just a bit of a performance. Buying such a car and then obeying speed limits still brings some joy, doesn't it? But when we look at the aftermarket car parts industry, hardly anyone gets fooled that "this fancy gear shift lever will upgrade your car's performance". No, it's just "jewelry". A lot of it there is also in audio, but more often than not it gets marketed and sold as performance value. This is why people need to measure, and understand. If it can perform as manufacturer says and it is proven with objective measurements, then, there is real value and nothing wrong to pay a lot if you have money. Sadly, we've a long way to go...

When the amplifiers approach a size comparable to the speakers, that is a clue that something is very far-off. In this large space, to reproduce those drums like they are for real, requires capacity, a lot more than those speakers can deliver.

But that does not mean it can not be done. Speakers with better sensitivity, better radiation pattern control, higher output capacity - and the reproduced sound can be experienced as similar - exciting, dynamic. real. Still distinguishable from the real instruments playing, but more like it will be different rather than an overall reduction in how the sound is experienced.
 

mwmkravchenko

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Fantastic stuff, so what companies use underhung drivers and what do these drivers look like? Kind regards

Not that many manufacturers make them actually.

The image id stolen from Wikipedia.

The top plate on top of the magnet is where the strength of the magnetic circuit or magnetic flux is focused.

The top plate has to be rather thick to get you any useful excursion that is linear. And you need rather a rather large magnet to energize such a large amount of steel.

Now that you have seen the differences you can do a little homework and see for yourself if you are interested.
1920px-Voice_coil_geometry.svg.png
 

mwmkravchenko

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I also think that most of the people recognize what sounds good, when they have a chance to hear it. When you talk about midbass, or even midrange, imho, one small midrange driver per channel ain't gonna cut it. Arguably a mic can even record it. Have a look at this:


I know it's old stuff and probably everyone's seen it already, but if you go back and forth to compare, the difference in sound is clear. People who were actually there might have been impressed, but then again, they only listened to loudspeakers sometime after the performance was over...
My point is, we can expect only so much from stereo. Multichannel is a different story.

As for the diminishing returns, it's a law and you cannot bend it. I'm sorry about another car analogy, but performance there is expensive, even many times more for just a bit of a performance. Buying such a car and then obeying speed limits still brings some joy, doesn't it? But when we look at the aftermarket car parts industry, hardly anyone gets fooled that "this fancy gear shift lever will upgrade your car's performance". No, it's just "jewelry". A lot of it there is also in audio, but more often than not it gets marketed and sold as performance value. This is why people need to measure, and understand. If it can perform as manufacturer says and it is proven with objective measurements, then, there is real value and nothing wrong to pay a lot if you have money. Sadly, we've a long way to go...


I put on a set of headphones, eq'd to the Harmon curve that is most recent. And I listened to this YouTube video. Quite a difference between the two. And carefully chosen instrumentation to be "kind" to the speakers. There is no way that those speakers in that space could do this music justice. Most of the energy is in the midrange. And when you you power calculations and then surface area and excursion calculations to meet say 105db peaks in music those tiny midranges are never going to cut it. The systems that I have done that have a balanced high efficiency setup use a lot of midrange area. And you can hear it.

For low end I prefer a horn loaded system. Preferably bass for two and half octaves and then midbass. The impact capability is the closest thing I have ever heard to real life. No amount of watts or a few woofers ever equals what a few well designed horns can pull off. Thinking it through what you need to have is a room designed for the sound if you truly want to chase the high end sound. Because you cannot hide the size of enclosure required to do it correctly unless you are making a purpose designed room. I have consulted on and build a few such systems. They are forces of nature. One of them had a efficiency of 105db/watt all the way down to 10 hertz. This was a home theatre room that was also setup for two way sound if desired.

That is an entirely different topic. Because those are one off designs that are not to be had off of the shelf for any amount of money.
 

MarcT

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I'm not sure about diminishing returns but I think that, when you get to the ultra high end(expensive) speakers, you are going to perhaps find bigger differences in "house" sound than in lower price ranges. I say that because it is in the "high end" speakers that manufacturers employ all sorts of proprietary designs, driver materials, and cabinet constructions(some are not even traditional cabinets, per se). Also, some manufacturers seem to be intentionally trying to achieve a certain sound that is not accurate, but which will drive sales.
 

LTig

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Having loudspeakers in the room that are dead but ported in the right places can even influence the rooms sound. Ever hear of resonant bass traps? That's what an un-powered loudspeaker can become in the right proximity and location in a room.
You can suppress this influence by shorting the input terminal of the unused speaker.
 

Kal Rubinson

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I'm not sure about diminishing returns but I think that, when you get to the ultra high end(expensive) speakers, you are going to perhaps find bigger differences in "house" sound than in lower price ranges. I say that because it is in the "high end" speakers that manufacturers employ all sorts of proprietary designs, driver materials, and cabinet constructions(some are not even traditional cabinets, per se).
I don't think that those design efforts necessarily imply that there will be bigger differences.
Also, some manufacturers seem to be intentionally trying to achieve a certain sound that is not accurate, but which will drive sales.
That occurs at all price levels.
 

richard12511

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Having the same room position is also very important. Rooms influence the sound much more than a few points of a db. room.

Totally agree with most of this post, but I may disagree with this, at least in certain situations. By "same room position" do you also include "toe in" in that?
 

richard12511

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When the amplifiers approach a size comparable to the speakers, that is a clue that something is very far-off. In this large space, to reproduce those drums like they are for real, requires capacity, a lot more than those speakers can deliver.

But that does not mean it can not be done. Speakers with better sensitivity, better radiation pattern control, higher output capacity - and the reproduced sound can be experienced as similar - exciting, dynamic. real. Still distinguishable from the real instruments playing, but more like it will be different rather than an overall reduction in how the sound is experienced.

Haha, that was my thought, too. I wonder if a more "pro" style speaker system(compression driver and horn with multiple big subs) would do better there, or at least something similar. Those look like expensive audiophile cone and dome speakers.
 

mwmkravchenko

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Totally agree with most of this post, but I may disagree with this, at least in certain situations. By "same room position" do you also include "toe in" in that?

Toes in can be a function of the loudspeakers dispersion pattern. Some speakers work better with a toe in some do not need it. Experimentation would definitely be needed.
 

valerianf

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When we look at expensive speakers (as stated in the first post), we need to look at where goes the additional spending:
1) R&D.
2) Marketing and brand name.
3) Production cost (local or low volume production, cabinet finish...).
4) Oils snake.

Only real tests and measurements as Amir is doing can help us understand the achievement.
I would be happy if Amir will test high end large tower speakers from Focal, Sonus Faber, Canton, Elipson, Wharfedale, Monitor Audio ...
But I need to be realistic: I do not think that I will be able to buy a pair of them.
 

richard12511

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Toes in can be a function of the loudspeakers dispersion pattern. Some speakers work better with a toe in some do not need it. Experimentation would definitely be needed.

Agreed.

One of the qualms I have against the Harman blind tests is that their switcher places all speakers in the same spot with no toe in. IMO, this heavily favors speakers with wider dispersion. IMO, it would be best to have a defined "best toe in" for each speaker, and then have a switcher that could place each speaker with that toe in for the blind test. That's much harder, though, so I don't fault them for doing it the way they did.
 

carewser

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I ask since I will be comparing speakers recommended here with some pricier ones and would like some guidance on which I should add to my list to listen to in that higher priced category.
There are a couple of shops here in town that sell some very expensive high-end gear and I refuse to listen to any of it because I don't want to return home thinking my system sucks

Ideally you should compare loudspealers in your own room, switching instantly ( whilst not perfect) is the most valid form of comparison.
Keith
And that's why, amongst other reasons, I have 16 speakers and 7 subwoofers all hooked up in the same room
 
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Duke

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What gets reviewed is what gets sent in by members (for the most part), and so far no one has volunteered any $40k speakers to be measured.

Manufacturers of that kind of speaker are unlikely to send them in for independent review, at least so far they haven't, but there is some data out there for many of them.

My understanding (based on conversations with Amir and Erin) is that loudspeaker system size, weight, and complexity impose limits on what is practical to measure with the Klippel system. Neither seemed very enthusiastic when I described the fairly large and heavy polydirectional speakers I make.
 

hardisj

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My understanding (based on conversations with Amir and Erin) is that loudspeaker system size, weight, and complexity impose limits on what is practical to measure with the Klippel system. Neither seemed very enthusiastic when I described the fairly large and heavy polydirectional speakers I make.


I forgot you had asked so I went back and looked at our PM chain. FWIW, I didn’t say no. This is the last sentence in my reply:
Maybe get back to me around March or April and we can see how things are going then.


Soooooo…. Feel free to PM me again. :) ;)

You did mention having something that wasn’t quite so heavy and bulky and that would be easier on me as hoisting a 100lb+ speaker up to a platform isn’t my idea of fun. But let’s chat.
 

jhaider

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Fantastic stuff, so what companies use underhung drivers and what do these drivers look like? Kind regards

Here’s one.

Commercial speaker of this driver uses known to me are Adam Audio’s old flagship Tensor sub, Magico Qsub (they may have subsequently started using cheaper drivers) and flagship, Monster-Design in the early 2000s.
 

Duke

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I forgot you had asked so I went back and looked at our PM chain. FWIW, I didn’t say no. This is the last sentence in my reply:

"Maybe get back to me around March or April and we can see how things are going then."

Soooooo…. Feel free to PM me again. :) ;)


I had forgotten that - THANKS for the reminder!

You did mention having something that wasn’t quite so heavy and bulky and that would be easier on me as hoisting a 100lb+ speaker up to a platform isn’t my idea of fun. But let’s chat.


I have made all the measurements necessary to begin that speaker's crossover design, but it hasn't worked its way to the front of the line yet.
 

FeddyLost

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What a guitar or a trumpet sounds like. A drum set. They don't sound much like what I hear on recordings.
One of the key problems is that currently production is one merging "instrument" for most of music. And one just can't hear them "as they should be in mix".
And dry nearfield sound of most instruments is really annoying for me. Maybe except for some bass...
 
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