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Digitizing Vinyl - A special case

TBone

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A different cartridge will probably sound different but a "better" setup may not sound better. The weak link is the records themselves, especially if your records are older.
Dont know what to make of any significance of your 1st sentence, but without a doubt, orig lp's commonly measure superior in dynamic range. pressing quality, well that's another matter ...
I don't "play records" anymore
Experience creates subject matter experts.

(I assume modern vinyl is better and more consistent but IMO it's not worth spending a lot of money on something that will never sound as good as a cheap CD player.)
Those assumptions r ... well ... lets just say its just not nearly that easy or simple a generization as you incline ...

Many "highend" digital front ends have graced my system. past the travel&lifting, thats the easy part of digital.

current CDs capable players: from cheapest to thrill: panasonic blueray, a nad(mash), pro sony, linn ikemi, macbook/sony pro dac setup ... compared to 1 of 2 highly tuned, superb turntables.

I often compare & measure at will. no need to assume.
 
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I had a side hustle transferring analog discs to digital formats. One turntable I used was fancy but had issues, one was not so fancy and worked better. The one that was nice but flaky was the Strathclyde 305m. It came out of the same corner of the world that gave us the Linn Sondek LP-12 and is based on the same principles: an overbuilt Acoustic Research AR-XA. This one had a SME III arm. I mostly used the Shure 97xe as it was cheap and easily replaceable. Although I regularly cleaned LPs I transferred, there still would be pretty high wear/damage to styli because of the tendency for these discs to have some form of damage. Cueing LPs on this turntable was not steady.

The not so fancy turntable that turned out to be far more useful was an early direct drive Technics player. I landed on the Shure M-44 cartridge for this turntable, which meant that the stylus tracked at around 2 & 1/2 grams, much more secure in the groove and more likely to play through a damaged track. Also, as this is not a suspended subchassis turntable, cueing tracks was much easier.

You might find, after investing a lot of money into a turntable and LPs, that the distortions baked into every LP distract from enjoying music. I ultimately did. However, I'm offering two solutions. First, look at the lower end of the new Technics direct drive turntables. The SL 1500c has a built-in phono preamp, an Ortofon Red cartridge and is pretty much plug and play. You can make the most meaningful upgrades with changing the stylus of the cartridge, though there's nothing stopping you from replacing the cartridge or phono preamp.

I've used outboard handheld recorders for the analog to digital recording. They start at around $100, go up from there. Then I would take that recording and load it into Audacity---essentially Pro Tools but as freeware. Once in Audacity, I use Click Repair. I don't know what they charge now, when I got it over ten years ago it was $40. This set of tools can take you just about as far as one can reasonably go with LP replay and recording. This would end up costing around $1500, American.

Because I became aware of just how flawed LP replay is from my experiences transferring LP to digital, I offer a much cheaper solution. The Audio Technica AT LP-120XUSB is a direct-drive turntable with cartridge [the purdy good and easily upgraded Audio Technica AT VM 95], has a usb digital out, so you can hook up the turntable's digital out to your computer, record to Audacity and so on. $350 American. Won't be quite as good as the Technics---their top end turntables now represent state of the art as regards wow and flutter, their prices much more reasonable than other "high-end" turntables---but the LPs themselves will be the limiting factor sonically anyway. The AT LP-120XUSB might be all the turntable you'll need.
I find your posts right on the money, even if intriguing and sometimes diametraly opposite to my experience and opinion.

Although the four turntables mentioned are all of decent quality, none of them even attempts to go the extra mile which is so necessary in order get the most out of the signal recorded in the record groove.

One aspect of turntable performance that make or break the turntable - either for normal listening, but particular for transferring to digital - is its immunity from the vinyl noise. Records themselves DO NOT NOISE - everything from stylus, cantilever, cantilever suspension, transducer principle/output impedance, record/mat/platter interface, tonearm ( tube, bearings, etc ), subchassis ( if present ), decoupling mechanism ( if present ), plinth, cabling, electrical loading, preamp characteristics ... ALL these things get excited by the stylus riding in the groove, each of these having its own set of resonance(s). When lumped together, they can - and usually do - contribute much more noise than the record by itself.

It is cruel just by how much can the end result - digitized file - differ , even if made with the very same record and very same digital recorder/interface/sound card/callitwhateveryoulike. The most acid test for any real turntable is how it performs on blank groove with no signal ... - here the men get really separated from the boys.

Trouble is, there is no standard for such measurement(s). It can only be made for a "record player" - meaning something one puts record on/in and gets an electrical signal out - that is to say the combination of turntable, tonearm, cartridge and associated cabling and preamplification. The mere electrical signal to noise ratio can vary A LOT simply because of the choice of the output voltage and impedance of the cartidge - AND associated cabling. The biggest offenders are usually signal cables that go from the tonearm to the "outside world " - the degree of shielding goes from flying wires ( that pick up hum like crazy from any source, the closest one being usually either the power transformer in DC powered motors or AC motor within the turntable itself ) to properly fully shielded cabling. And the degree of interfering hum and buzz is then directly related to the output impedance of the cartridge .

Phono preamps also can differ appreciably in real world noise figures relative to the source impedance ... - short circuit input figures are meaningless in real world ( except when really low impedance cartridge is used, 3 ohm and below ).

ALL of these factors have to be considered in order to get the highest reasonably achievable electrical S/N ratio.

Only then taming the mechanical resonances mentioned above can start in earnest. But, once achieved - or even approaching the ideal - the result is a MUCH cleaner signal with MUCH greater dynamic range.

And, of course, better finally resulting digital file.

I could not agree more regarding the variability of the records themselves ... - even the non existing perfect turntable can't miraculously turn a frisbee into a superdisc.
 

Robin L

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I find your posts right on the money, even if intriguing and sometimes diametraly opposite to my experience and opinion.

Although the four turntables mentioned are all of decent quality, none of them even attempts to go the extra mile which is so necessary in order get the most out of the signal recorded in the record groove.

One aspect of turntable performance that make or break the turntable - either for normal listening, but particular for transferring to digital - is its immunity from the vinyl noise. Records themselves DO NOT NOISE - everything from stylus, cantilever, cantilever suspension, transducer principle/output impedance, record/mat/platter interface, tonearm ( tube, bearings, etc ), subchassis ( if present ), decoupling mechanism ( if present ), plinth, cabling, electrical loading, preamp characteristics ... ALL these things get excited by the stylus riding in the groove, each of these having its own set of resonance(s). When lumped together, they can - and usually do - contribute much more noise than the record by itself.

It is cruel just by how much can the end result - digitized file - differ , even if made with the very same record and very same digital recorder/interface/sound card/callitwhateveryoulike. The most acid test for any real turntable is how it performs on blank groove with no signal ... - here the men get really separated from the boys.

Trouble is, there is no standard for such measurement(s). It can only be made for a "record player" - meaning something one puts record on/in and gets an electrical signal out - that is to say the combination of turntable, tonearm, cartridge and associated cabling and preamplification. The mere electrical signal to noise ratio can vary A LOT simply because of the choice of the output voltage and impedance of the cartidge - AND associated cabling. The biggest offenders are usually signal cables that go from the tonearm to the "outside world " - the degree of shielding goes from flying wires ( that pick up hum like crazy from any source, the closest one being usually either the power transformer in DC powered motors or AC motor within the turntable itself ) to properly fully shielded cabling. And the degree of interfering hum and buzz is then directly related to the output impedance of the cartridge .

Phono preamps also can differ appreciably in real world noise figures relative to the source impedance ... - short circuit input figures are meaningless in real world ( except when really low impedance cartridge is used, 3 ohm and below ).

ALL of these factors have to be considered in order to get the highest reasonably achievable electrical S/N ratio.

Only then taming the mechanical resonances mentioned above can start in earnest. But, once achieved - or even approaching the ideal - the result is a MUCH cleaner signal with MUCH greater dynamic range.

And, of course, better finally resulting digital file.

I could not agree more regarding the variability of the records themselves ... - even the non existing perfect turntable can't miraculously turn a frisbee into a superdisc.
. . . or you could spend less than $200 on a decent DAC, hook up the computer and stream. No more worries about skipping records. And if the sound of the 12" black platter is not quite as good as a half-assed CD transfer, why bother with an expensive, complicated turntable? Yeah, I know, special cases where the mastering might be different, or the music is otherwise unavailable. But that wouldn't justify overspending for an overbuilt turntable. The end results are only as good as the LPs themselves, and those rise no higher than an underperforming CD.
 
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fonts

fonts

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Awesome post. I’m attracted to how technical this can get. One could take this to the nth degree but still be let down by the record itself as you say. Isn’t this part of the fun of the hobby though ?

For me now - finding a well balanced listening setup is key - where I can upgrade and tweak along the way if and when I want to.

For the recording - at this stage it’s good enough. My dad was incredibly confused when I played it to him but at the same time - I could tell he knew he was hearing himself play as he kept listening to the saxophone he played 50 years ago. Each player has a unique tone on the instrument - their signature sound. I am absolutely blown away that based on the recording the level of detail required to hear that is etched in those grooves - sitting all this time.

I actually have an absolutely pristine additional copy of the record that I was fortunate enough to pick up. One day - I’ll try and digitise it again but at higher quality.

Or perhaps by then I could afford an ELP
 

JP

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One aspect of turntable performance that make or break the turntable - either for normal listening, but particular for transferring to digital - is its immunity from the vinyl noise. Records themselves DO NOT NOISE - everything from stylus, cantilever, cantilever suspension, transducer principle/output impedance, record/mat/platter interface, tonearm ( tube, bearings, etc ), subchassis ( if present ), decoupling mechanism ( if present ), plinth, cabling, electrical loading, preamp characteristics ... ALL these things get excited by the stylus riding in the groove, each of these having its own set of resonance(s). When lumped together, they can - and usually do - contribute much more noise than the record by itself.
Ever playback a fresh lacquer?
 
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. . . or you could spend less than $200 on a decent DAC, hook up the computer and stream. No more worries about skipping records. And if the sound of the 12" black platter is not quite as good as a half-assed CD transfer, why bother with an expensive, complicated turntable? Yeah, I know, special cases where the mastering might be different, or the music is otherwise available. But that wouldn't justify overspending for an overbuilt turntable. The end results are only as good as the LPs themselves, and those rise no higher than an underperforming CD.
Here I have to disagree ... strongly so.

OK with everything you said - except that the best LPs ( admittedly minuscule minority of all LPs ever issued ) do throw any CD ever likely to be made out of water.

It is the frequency response possible with analog records that is the clincher vs any CD - which, by it very own definition, has to resort to brickwall filtering just above 20 kHz.

Records can go - at very least - up to 40 kHz. The best could muster above 100 kHz - both in mastering (cutting to disc) as well as playback. Even if we accept 40kHz limitation, CD will forever fall short in such comparisons. It takes at least 88.2 kHz sampling rate to try to replicate this performance.

Really good analog tape master recordings extend past 40 kHz point - again, they may be rare, but they DO exist. You can verify that in the officially available download at 192/24 of the album
There are sections with percussion extending well past 70 kHz - with NO otherwise usually present digital artifacts all the way to 96 kHz limit.
The original record - even after regular playback during all these decades - recorded with great TT/cart at high sampling rate shows only minimal loss of information above 20 kHz compared to 192/24 transfer from the master tape.

Now, it is possible to argue that the equipment that can actually translate the above into better sonic experience is expensive.

True.

But ...- it DOES deliver. Better than any CD ever will. At a cost ...

Digital at higher sampling frequencies may one day render analog obsolete. But, try as I might, I have yet to hear any digital that is indistinguishable from the analog sourced vinyl played "live". And I am certainly not alone with this opinion based on experience.
 

BDWoody

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_thelaughingman

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Records can go - at very least - up to 40 kHz. The best could muster above 100 kHz - both in mastering (cutting to disc) as well as playback. Even if we accept 40kHz limitation, CD will forever fall short in such comparisons. It takes at least 88.2 kHz sampling rate to try to replicate this performance.
WHAT? There is no medical data that backs up this claim that, humans can hear up to 40kHz.
 

TBone

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. . . or you could spend less than $200 on a decent DAC, hook up the computer and stream. No more worries about skipping records. And if the sound of the 12" black platter is not quite as good as a half-assed CD transfer, why bother with an expensive, complicated turntable? Yeah, I know, special cases where the mastering might be different, or the music is otherwise available. But that wouldn't justify overspending for an overbuilt turntable. The end results are only as good as the LPs themselves, and those rise no higher than an underperforming CD.

above simplifies & minimizes the point of vinyls DR capability by a country mile. this isnt about "special case" vinyl, hardly. Commonalities r not special cases ...

... home auditioning a topping e30 this weekend, your post hints the silly belief that it or any $200 dac will magically transform the very large bulk of my cds suddenly more dynamically capable, an impossibility that every other digital front end couldn't muster either.

That notion will certainly not be an expectation of this e30 units performance ... bc it would certainly fail.
 
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Ever playback a fresh lacquer?
Unfortunately, not.

The closest that came to cutting equipment being available in what is now Slovenia has been in late 80s - RTV Ljubljana bought Neumann latest non DMM capable lathe. It sat a few years still in original wraps - which was the condition in which it has been resold further.

Now we even no longer have any pressing facility...
 

Soundstage

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If I were in your shoes I would get in touch with someone that has a good equipment and take it from there.
 
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WHAT? There is no medical data that backs up this claim that, humans can hear up to 40kHz.
There IS. Not hear directly with ears - but perceive .

Mainly trough skin - particularly the region around the eyes is supposedly sensitive to sound beyond 20 kHz. There are medical studies out there - which have proven that people can distinguish between reproduction limited to 20 kHz and "unlimited" one - visible on EKG results.

One producer of >> 20 kHz speakers and headphones even suggests to his prospective customers to try to listen with their eyes like normal and then covered; those who can perceive the difference when listening to playback with > 20 kHz capability with eyes normal or covered, will benefit from equipment with > 20 kHz bandwidth.
 

TBone

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It is the frequency response possible with analog records that is the clincher vs any CD - which, by it very own definition, has to resort to brickwall filtering just above 20 kHz.

the ole 16/44 brickwall anchor, such an old and totally redundant debate.

Records can go - at very least - up to 40 kHz. The best could muster above 100 kHz - both in mastering (cutting to disc) as well as playback. Even if we accept 40kHz limitation, CD will forever fall short in such comparisons. It takes at least 88.2 kHz sampling rate to try to replicate this performance.

Vinyl, generally anything above 10khz is going to include resonant peaks and valleys, distortion, and near 0 separation. advantage digital.

But ...- it DOES deliver. Better than any CD ever will. At a cost ...

"any" CD ... not even remotely close to reality.

Again, both sides of the debate muddy the waters beyond meaning, above case in point.

Digital at higher sampling frequencies may one day render analog obsolete. But, try as I might, I have yet to hear any digital that is indistinguishable from the analog sourced vinyl played "live". And I am certainly not alone with this opinion based on experience.

One day you will be alone ... trust me.
 

pjug

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If you don't know someone who can do it there are services for this. E.g. this one looks like it might be close to you. I would want to hand deliver and pick up since the record cannot be replaced.
 
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the ole 16/44 brickwall anchor, such an old and totally redundant debate.



Vinyl, generally anything above 10khz is going to include resonant peaks and valleys, distortion, and near 0 separation. advantage digital.
Not necessarily true. There are/were cartridges with excellent response and separation all the way to 50 kHz teast record limit


"any" CD ... not even remotely close to reality.
Any CD produced according to Red Book.
Again, both sides of the debate muddy the waters beyond meaning, above case in point.
True - your reply included.
One day you will be alone ... trust me.
If I did not believe in people to generally tend towards improvement/better, I would say no. As it is, I will be GLAD if and when the digital musters the indistinguishable copy of analog. But, we are not there yet. Hopefully it will happen soon.
 

TBone

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True - your reply included.

My experience with the above subject matter is extensive ... and long documented ... hopefully that experience brings clarity into this very debate, unlike fairy tales ...
 
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JP

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Unfortunately, not.

The closest that came to cutting equipment being available in what is now Slovenia has been in late 80s - RTV Ljubljana bought Neumann latest non DMM capable lathe. It sat a few years still in original wraps - which was the condition in which it has been resold further.

Now we even no longer have any pressing facility...
Few do, which is a pity, as it'd give a lot of folks perspective on noise contribution. In anything that was actually engineered and executed competently I've never seen the record itself not be the dominant source of noise.
 

antcollinet

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Digital at higher sampling frequencies may one day render analog obsolete. But, try as I might, I have yet to hear any digital that is indistinguishable from the analog sourced vinyl played "live". And I am certainly not alone with this opinion based on experience.

Go on: Do a properly controlled double blind abx. I dare you!
 
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