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Digital vs Vinyl

DSJR

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Vinyl ha bigger dynamic range if you listen to it.
There is some confusion about the 1 bit = 6 dB rule, which is incredibly wrong.
So CD has no 96 dB because of the 16 bit.

With respect, I'd suggest you're the confused party here. There are discs out there with un-dithered and dithered samples at -90dB and easily heard if the volume is turned up a little (dithering helps so much at these levels)...
 

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There are plenty of technical non-sequiturs in TT "common knowledge" simply because static explanations have been made, and accepted by the business and hence the market, for a dynamic system.
It never ceases to amaze me.
Thanks for the explanation about your former job. Out of curiosity, would you be able to elaborate about the technical non-sequiturs, "common knowledge", and static explanations please?

The whole LP business is fashion industry today IMO not technically based at all.
I would have to agree - an industry catering to people who for whatever reason feeeeeeeel that vinyl is a better technology than digital, simply because they prefer the particular imperfections in the vinyl chain, frequency response being the main one, and then the people working in that industry try to ram that message even further down the customers' throats.
Although said in a completely different context, it reminds me of three quotes by Thomas Sowell:

"A talented con man, or a slick politician, does not waste his time trying to convince knowledgeable skeptics. His job is to keep the true believers believing. He is not going to convince the others anyway."

"Some things are believed because they are demonstrably true, but many other things are believed because they have been asserted repeatedly."

"Much of the social history of the Western world over the past three decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good."

And lastly a quote by William Lloyd Garrison:

"With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plea; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost."

Translation: There's no reason to even try to debate with vinylphiles, because their opinions are rarely based on facts, but on feelings, and they will continue to feeeeeeeel the way they feeeeeeel no matter what you tell them.
And that is of course epitomized in yet another quote, this one by Jonathan Swift:

"Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired "

Some have always produced non-neutral cartidges tuned to taste. Some have always tried for neutral, I think now it is such a long time since proper engineering techniques were used to measure stuff the equipment needed, specifically accurate test records, are no longer made by B&K.
True. It does seem like certain companies aim for neutrality, or at least the further up their line you go, the more neutral their cartridges become. Nagaoka is one example, with the MP-500 (their most expensive model) being the most neutral cartridge I've ever come across. The cheapest Audio Technicas, like the AT95 line, seem surprisingly neutral, although several of their other models are less neutral. Dynavector and Goldring also seems to be a mix of very neutral and "tuned to preference", whereas Lyra and perhaps also Zyx and Sumiko seem to aim exclusively for a specific tonality.
Yesterday I wrote a bit about this in the thread "Uncoloured phono cartridges", where I posted a lot of frequency response charts.
 

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With respect, I'd suggest you're the confused party here. There are discs out there with un-dithered and dithered samples at -90dB and easily heard if the volume is turned up a little (dithering helps so much at these levels)...
Over at Xiph.org you can download a file that has a 1 kHz tone at -105 dB. Perhaps needless to say, this is also dithered.
 

MrPeabody

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This thread keeps showing up in the list of most recent posts. I've glanced at it several times and up until now have decided to ignore it. But eventually, it got the best of me.

The question as asked is confusing and not quite on the up and up. The question that was actually asked is whether in some cases the vinyl release of a particular title is preferred over the CD release. But the question was also phrased in a manner that suggested that if the vinyl release is preferred in some cases, that this would be some sort of criticism of CD as compared to vinyl. This simply does not make sense. If the CD release has too much variation in peak volume relative to nominal volume (vs. personal preference) this isn't something that should be attributable to the CD format. It would be silly to think that the mastering of the CD for some reason made it necessary for the dynamic range on the CD to be that great. I'm not saying something that isn't obvious. Yet, it was inevitable for this thread to turn immediately to yet another winding and pointless discussion of the merits of the analog vinyl format vs. the CD format. The proper response that SHOULD have been given by nearly everyone who wrote a response is something like this: "The question you are asking is silly. Yes, I know of a few titles where I liked the vinyl release and for whatever reason I did not like the CD release. That's the answer to your question, and it wouldn't be right for you to insinuate that this says anything at all about the relative merits of the two formats."
 

Frank Dernie

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Thanks for the explanation about your former job. Out of curiosity, would you be able to elaborate about the technical non-sequiturs, "common knowledge", and static explanations please?
The most common is "rigid".
Making a whole record player rigid over the entire audio freuency range is impossible.
Another is "closing the loop" making the link between the headshell and main bearing as stiff as possible.
Both these are static thinking and the device only needs to be rigid enough to maintain alignment because, dynamically, the cartridge body becomes stationary anyway relative to the groove at around 2x the natural frequency of the effective mass on the stylus suspension compliance.
It is actually worse than it seems :) too. Since the output of the cartridge is caused by a relative movement between coil and magnet output comes from both cantilever vibration from the groove and any vibration of the cartridge body and the stiffer the arm the higher in frequency any vibration at the arm mount, from motor or environmental pickup, will be coupled to the cartridge body.
Another is the idea that a lower compliance cartridge feeds more energy into the arm, at audio frequencies it is the cantilever damper not the spring doing this. Given that most cartridges have a polymeric damper this is likely to change a lot with age but is never specified anyway.

In reality things are sufficiently complicated to be hard to visualise, and I think that is why so many people, including some engineers, continue to think about a record player in static terms, and once somebody had absorbed the narrative...

The system has 6 degrees of freedom, two are important for accurate transduction but cross coupling of modes means that today, if one wanted to produce a well engineered accurate turntable at a sensible cost a full distributed mass analysis - certainly feasible today - would show what the stiffness distribution should be and as stiff as possible almost certainly will be the wrong answer.

Len Gregory who was in business for decades as "The Cartridge man" and died last year RIP sold, amongst other things, a cartridge isolator to reduce vibration at the headshell getting to the cartridge body. I have never tried it but it makes complete sense technically (apart from if one has absorbed the stiffer is better mantra). I have seen 2 different versions with different stiffnesses, both are hideous.
 

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DSJR

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Can't get the page for some reason - sorry.

I have had experience of analogue to digital remastering as an old pal and ex colleague of mine was a mastering engineer for some years for a once autonomous international record label (Decca), both he and his boss giving me chapter and verse on the pros and cons of cutting records from the late 50's through to the 80's with old and new cutting systems with the severe eq and other compromises that had to be made on all the old Decca cuts the audiophiles like and prefer, as well as digitising old analogue tapes, some tapes being a race against time as many were shedding badly. I remember him telling me about the later A-D systems they used and the beneficial effects on dither/noise shaping, even if it basically meant that tape hiss was reproduced a little more cleanly ;) As my main desire is to get my sources as close as I can afford to get to the master source as far as the mastering engineer will let me, I'm happy that domestic red book digital is all bit indistinguishable to the master analogue source at least (nbeen there and done it - and not on expensive CD players either) and the rest as far as modern digital recordings is basically mastering quality, many 'higher res' albums almost certainly further tweaked (I think Martin Colloms did a spectrum analysis of SA-CD's at least in HFN many years back and most SA-CD's had different eq to the CD issue).

So much contradicting stuff around, most of it from un-knowing domestic end-users who prefer what they prefer. I'd not have stood a chance as a dealer staffer without these pro friends who also went out doing amateur recordings (very good some were as well) and showing me how wrong so much of the UK 1980's audio scene really was.. Linn's slagging off digital was a laugh really when in the background they were designing the first pro version of the Numerik processer which looked similar to the modular Sony pro 1610/1630 type (I'm told it was excellent).. All in the past now and I was kind of hoping 'we'd' be better educated today...
 

MattHooper

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(This is an old comment, but...)

My attitude to records is: if you have 'em, play 'em. If you don't, there's no reason to start collecting them now.

I think dispensing advice requires understanding the goals or motivations of the other person. You may have no reason to start collecting records, but someone else might. As I've mentioned before, getting in to playing records relatively recently revitalized my enjoyment of music and listening to my hi-fi system.

At this point, even given the ubiquitous availability of digital music, huge numbers of people have got in to vinyl for the first time, collecting records, with great enthusiasm. They are clearly getting something from records they aren't getting from streaming music.

Even someone on this forum may get a kick out of buying a turntable and records, not looking for accuracy but they may find other aspects satisfying and fun as an addition to their digital sources.
 

Daverz

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(This is an old comment, but...)
I think dispensing advice requires understanding the goals or motivations of the other person.

Most people ("the average punters" as they say in the UK) wanting to collect records now are being greatly misled by a lot of hype. Encouraging them to waste time on collecting records and spending money on competent equipment is not good advice in 2021.

I can think of goals that make sense to me, like wanting to hear or archive specific music that's not available otherwise. But that's someone who has done the research and knows what they are looking for. And some people just like to collect objects, that I get. But for music in general (unless, again, you're looking for something specifically only on records), it does not make sense.
 

mkawa

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my brother's teenager likes vinyl because it's cool and retro. not after audio bliss -- all piped through bluetooth or a pair of audioengines. there's a fair share of punters with this mindset for whom collecting vinyl is perfectly reasonable. all the other kids stream spotify. you collect your faves on some crazy old technology the boomers designed. you are cooler.

for audiophiles though it seems downright silly. some of those kids might become audiophiles though! is vinyl the new gateway drug? HMM
 

MattHooper

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Most people ("the average punters" as they say in the UK) wanting to collect records now are being greatly misled by a lot of hype.

Well, yes and no.

Yes there is a fair amount of nonsense out there, including that vinyl is superior to digital. Though it's not across the board, there's also the theme that vinyl is lower fidelity than digital but people like the nostalgic "hiss/crackle/pop" of records (I'm not one of these who likes those artifacts).


Encouraging them to waste time on collecting records and spending money on competent equipment is not good advice in 2021.

I believe you are not looking beyond your own likes/dislikes/goals in that assessment.

Anyone who has gotten in to vinyl and enjoys it is not 'wasting time." It's what they enjoy. One may as well say you waste "too much time listening to hi-fi" or "posting on audio forums" or whatever, but that's your passion. It's not for someone else to dictate what is wasting your time.

I've paid close attention to the vinyl revival, reading tons and tons of articles, watching forums devoted to people getting in to vinyl both "veterans" and newbies/young people and the level of enthusiasm and joy is off the charts. And it's not like these folks have no experience with digital music. There's a reason vinyl has experienced such a huge search of popularity all over the world, and it's not because everyone is getting hoodwinked: it's that many of discovered it offers particular features and pleasures they don't get from streaming music.



I can think of goals that make sense to me, like wanting to hear or archive specific music that's not available otherwise. But that's someone who has done the research and knows what they are looking for. And some people just like to collect objects, that I get. But for music in general (unless, again, you're looking for something specifically only on records), it does not make sense.

That just seems bizarre to me. Records contain music. I used them for music, and personally they have revitalized my connection to my music collection and listening.


mkawa,


my brother's teenager likes vinyl because it's cool and retro. not after audio bliss -- all piped through bluetooth or a pair of audioengines. there's a fair share of punters with this mindset for whom collecting vinyl is perfectly reasonable. all the other kids stream spotify. you collect your faves on some crazy old technology the boomers designed. you are cooler.

for audiophiles though it seems downright silly.

I disagree. I'm an audiophile and I don't think it's "silly" that I listen to a lot of records. I've carefully curated my system for great sound, and vinyl often sounds absolutely tremendous on my system, to my ears. It gives me the same sonic thrills (occaisionally more) than I got from listening to my digital source for the last several decades. When I go back and forth between my digital and vinyl, generally speaking, the sound quality isn't predicated on which source, but on the source quality. Some digital albums sound better, some vinyl.

some of those kids might become audiophiles though! is vinyl the new gateway drug? HMM

It does seem to be the case. Having followed forums in which you see many just getting in to vinyl and higher end audio equipment, I'm seeing a fair amount of "I just got X record player, and had to buy speakers and and amp to listen to records. I'm loving it, and plan to upgrade when I can afford it." So while folks on this site may see it as an off-the-beaten-track path to better sound, it does seem to have spurred many to think more about sound quality, equipment, the idea that sound can be upgraded via better speakers etc.
 

MattHooper

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As I said, I understand collecting objects for their own sake. For those interested in music in general, encouraging them to start collecting records in 2021 is not good advice.

You are missing the point. You can't just separate the music in the equation. I'm collecting music when I collect vinyl. There are different ways of collecting music, e.g. tape cassettes, CDs, vinyl, digital downloads, saving favorites via streaming etc. I'm using records as the method for collecting music. As a medium it's actually opened my musical horizons even further. And as a medium it has an overall impact on how I experience my music, on listening to music. Millions of other people find the same thing. Many young people report that the experience of physical LPs seems to positively enhance their connection when listening to music, it becomes less background and more intentional listening. And they have found themselves via rifling through their parents collections, or going to record stores etc finding and falling in love with all types of music they otherwise wouldn't have known about, or given the time of day.

If a music lover is thrilled by collecting and listening to their music on records in 2021, why not?

Take a look at some vinyl forums (which included many newly in to vinyl):

https://www.reddit.com/r/vinyl/

https://www.reddit.com/r/OSTvinyl/

There are clearly a lot of people very happy to have started collecting records during the recent vinyl revival. It strikes me as bizarre to presume
it is inadvisable.

Unfortunately I see a lot of vinyl skepticism on this forum being a case of "I know not of what I speak." By that I don't mean, don't know anything about vinyl. Plenty here grew up with vinyl and have plenty of knowledge. What I mean is people who aren't actually personally interested in vinyl are the least likely to care about why other people are in to it, and hence tend to not be able to think much beyond their own attitudes, instead of trying to understand the various, often sensible reasons many around the world are currently in to vinyl. You get some pretty naive pop-psychology out of this "just for hipsters, but not if you are serious about music or audio" type stuff.
 

JoachimStrobel

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For me having been a young audiophile during the 70s it was always clear that vinyl is a huge problem. People making tape recordings at home from live or properly taped concerts broadcasted via FM always knew that this was much better than vinyl. People became desperate and developed tangential arms and all kind of needles to combat the problem. DirectToDisc became fashionable, and even 45rpm was kind of re-introduced. The most desperat tried digital kits for their VHS recorder. And the worst - vinyl was not portable. But then came the ultimate solution - the CD.
 

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You are missing the point. You can't just separate the music in the equation. I'm collecting music when I collect vinyl. There are different ways of collecting music, e.g. tape cassettes, CDs, vinyl, digital downloads, saving favorites via streaming etc. I'm using records as the method for collecting music. As a medium it's actually opened my musical horizons even further. And as a medium it has an overall impact on how I experience my music, on listening to music. Millions of other people find the same thing. Many young people report that the experience of physical LPs seems to positively enhance their connection when listening to music, it becomes less background and more intentional listening. And they have found themselves via rifling through their parents collections, or going to record stores etc finding and falling in love with all types of music they otherwise wouldn't have known about, or given the time of day.

If a music lover is thrilled by collecting and listening to their music on records in 2021, why not?

Take a look at some vinyl forums (which included many newly in to vinyl):

https://www.reddit.com/r/vinyl/

https://www.reddit.com/r/OSTvinyl/

There are clearly a lot of people very happy to have started collecting records during the recent vinyl revival. It strikes me as bizarre to presume
it is inadvisable.

Unfortunately I see a lot of vinyl skepticism on this forum being a case of "I know not of what I speak." By that I don't mean, don't know anything about vinyl. Plenty here grew up with vinyl and have plenty of knowledge. What I mean is people who aren't actually personally interested in vinyl are the least likely to care about why other people are in to it, and hence tend to not be able to think much beyond their own attitudes, instead of trying to understand the various, often sensible reasons many around the world are currently in to vinyl. You get some pretty naive pop-psychology out of this "just for hipsters, but not if you are serious about music or audio" type stuff.
I was actually vinyl-only for 15 years before I started comparing to CDs (now having done over 800 comparisons) and then I sold a lot of my records, although I still have many.
I think you capture very well a lot of the attraction to vinyl, which in many cases (not all) has nothing to do with the sound:
It's a "fault" of the medium that you have to flip it half-way through, so you become more attentive. It's a "fault" of the medium that you have to manually and carefully lower the cartridge into the groove, so you become more attentive, and it's also a "fault" of the medium that you have to manually and carefully move the cartridge if you want to skip a song instead of pushing a button on a remote for a CD player or create a playlist without that song on a computer. It's a "fault" of the medium that it takes up so much space instead of much less space, such as a CD, or even less space, like a mini-disc, or even less space, like data on a hard drive.
But all of these things are "fun" to many people, and these faults are then being called positive attributes, because geeky people like those geeky things - big covers, beautifully designed turntables, trying out different cartridges, the slow, meticuous process of taking a record out of its cover, putting it on the turntable, etc. The whole tactile pleasure of vinyl as well as the constant hunt for records was probably what was most difficult for me to let go off when I gave up vinyl.
I have a friend who got into vinyl at the same time as me (1998), and he sold most of his enormous collection (mostly one genre, as he was a dj), then later started buying records again, but when he started collecting again it was a purely material thing, because he hasn't opened any of the records he bought, and he streams everything on Spotify.
So, vinyl has such a great appeal that people will buy it without even bothering to listen to it - and my friend is far from the only one. 50 % of people who buy vinyl today don't even own listen to it or own a turntable, one study found.
I haven't even commented on cases where vinyl editions also sound much better than the digital versions to me (and to most people on ASR I'm sure), even though I've found many cases of just that.
Lastly, hopefully we can all agree that the visual and emotional aspect is a much bigger part of audiophilia and/or record collecting than most people want to admit. There is pride of ownership with records as records will make you admired by other collectors and audiophiles as someone "cool" and "in the know", and there's a visual aestethic to records, so much so that almost every woman who has come to my house in the last 2½ years (around 30 of them), and none of them have cared particularly about music, has gone straight to look at my records (one called them "a collection of jewels") rather than look at my more or less equally large CD collection.
Besides that particular visual and tactile aspect there's the visual aspect of the playback equipment with its slow, visual rotation, tonearms, cartridges, counterweights, record clamps, brushes, etc. CD players give absolutely none of that visual appeal except for a digital display and, if you're lucky, slightly sleek design to an otherwise completely square black or silver box. Rega makes red and green turntables. Where are the red and green CD players?
I would dare claim that in a sighted test, playing the exact same song twice in a row, from the same medium, more people would prefer the version they were being told was played on this:


Kronos.Pro_-5.jpg



Than the exact same song that they were being told was being played on this:

cd-s700_black.jpg
 
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