Digital vs. Vinyl (again)

[Ken Newton]

Here's a link to a letter to Gramophone regarding the, then, upcoming article on the resurgence of vinyl.

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/forum/g...sive-gramophone-article-on-vinyl-“resurgence”

Also, the May issue cover.

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/classical-music-news/may-issue-the-return-of-the-lp-out-now

 

[Thomas savage]

No, it's OUR fault. As a group, audiophiles have long been complicit, buying music like candy without question, applying the usual fluffy prose describing equipment without proper reference to any mastering used, good or bad. No friggin wonder opinions hover all over the place. It's only relatively recently audiophiles have become aware of compression/loudness-mastering practices, and many still wish to ignore the issue, or perhaps they don't care, or simply don't get-it (they may even prefer compression, louder = better). Worse, the vast majority of reviewers fail to mention provenance issues, yet they'll discuss wires, cables, coils, caps, chips, output stages, ground boxes with little stones, magic pebbles, cryo'ing, and how all CD sound like crap, and/or DSD and LP are heaven sent ... as if any of those variables sound more noticeable over mastering ... (big sigh)

Thanks for bringing this level of self awareness and personal responsibility to the forum.

 

[amirm]

Amir, out of curiosity, which TT did you have?

It is an old linear tracking Technics turntable. Bought it circa 1982.

 

[krabapple]

I can't speak to the question of whether the red lines in the figure are clipped, but you can most certainly clip single samples.

I'm all ears. Please explain.

 

[krabapple]

Again, another generalization, it depends on which pressing you refer.

Diament's mastering is L/R reversed compared to Page's and (IIRC) to first LP issues.

 

[krabapple]

View attachment 2024

Thanks. That's true clipping. Now, how many of those red lines do that (i.e., does your clip detector only detect real clipping?). And: is it audible?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Thanks. That's true clipping. Now, how many of those red lines do that (i.e., does your clip detector only detect real clipping?). And: is it audible?

It appears to be Audacity. And Audacity shows clipping for any bit that reaches 0 db. It also has a find clipping function where you can choose how it detects clipping. Default is to show clipping when 3 consecutive samples are at 0 db.

 

[TBone]

It appears to be Audacity. And Audacity shows clipping for any bit that reaches 0 db. It also has a find clipping function where you can choose how it detects clipping. Default is to show clipping when 3 consecutive samples are at 0 db.

iirc, mine set@ 2.

 

[TBone]

It is an old linear tracking Technics turntable. Bought it circa 1982.

well, perhaps it's worth $omething now, market hipsters ...

Linear never did stay the course with me.

 

[Thomas savage]

iirc, mine set@ 2.

I believe this meets with the criteria of defining certain clipping.

Now, do you tie your shoe laces property? Can you be trusted not to wee on the toilet seat?

Oh ..., what's this?? Your not a total moron. Go figure!

But can you prove it t-bone?? Ah...

Turns out t-bone knows what he is doing... Shock horror!

 

[TBone]

thomas, sorry for the confusion, but 2 is the setting of my tolerance level. be aware that these are "special" trim pots, can ramp to 11.

 

[Thomas savage]

thomas, sorry for the confusion, but 2 is the setting of my tolerance level. be aware that these are "special" trim pots, can ramp to 11.

Yes but as a minimum you need two consecutive samples of 0 db for clipping to be 'defined' as a certainty..

Or is that nonsense on my part?

Is 2 also you audible threshold?

I am 30% moron myself, God made me this way to give you all a chance!

 

[TBone]

thomas, it's subjective ... ... I'll ask my Gerbal what he thinks.

 

[Thomas savage]

thomas, it's subjective ... ... I'll ask my Gerbal what he thinks.

I won't ask where you keep him

Does he speak with a cheek full of seeds? They need telling on a regular basis, rude buggers have no manners! Parallels can be drawn, inferences made...

 

[RayDunzl]

I set mine for 1.

Daft Punk - about 20 milliseconds of Lose Yourself to Dance:
Set to 2, no clips at all reported in the tune.
Set to 1, you find numerous of instances where sample value of the waveform is the maximum/minimum value.

Viewing the entire tune, it is slammed (trimmed/compressed/limited) against the limits almost from start to finish, as is the whole album.

Overall limiting/compression as an "artistic choice" in effect. You can see many instances in this where the wave was limited before it went out of bounds, and limited from touching that last little increment of +/-

Other tunes twiddled by other engineers, with similar processing of the wave, may show no clips even when set to 1, because their "artistic choice" software chooses not to use that last least significant bit and give itself away by illuminating that little clip light present on some devices.

 

[TBone]

Ray, keeping w/lz theme, clipping alone isn't an indicator of quality, I've clipped many rips in the past. Even without clipping, peaks get squashed ...

recent(2014) entire LZ3 ... no clipping, limited.

#1, Immigrant Song (dr.l9.0/r9.5) ...

b.diament cd (10.1/11.2) ...

lp rip. sd7201 (10.6/11.1) ...

In a moving car or boat, driving on gravelly road or quarter-chopping cresting waves, perhaps there ... I'd prefer the page.marino transfers.

 

[NorthSky]

Tony, I looked @ your graphs, I'm thinking @ my own Zeppelin on CDs, and I am very afraid of playing them...ever.
But more from sound quality memory than the graphs themselves...about 100% more.

 

[NorthSky]

My first TT was from the 60s, I'm not sure what brand...BSR, Garrard, RCA, ...?
Then an Akai fully automatic, then a Pioneer semi-auto belt drive, plus a Sony linear tracking.
None has the sound of super high fidelity, only hi-fi, so I tried various cartridges for audiofinalizing my ears, but to no full realization, only musical enough satisfaction. ...Fun. I spun albums for close to 40 years, meanwhile I let myself influenced by Sony and Philips with the digital CDs in the mid 80s.
But not before playing lots of cassette tapes.

I adore people who are into vinyl, they stick with the right format...just look @ today.

 

[TBone]

Tony, I looked @ your graphs, I'm thinking @ my own Zeppelin on CDs, and I am very afraid of playing them...ever.

well, perhaps even compressed LZ is better than no LZ in some Quarters.

Speaking of afraid, black fly season bites ...

 

[NorthSky]

I think the ones on youtube sound better than the ones on my CDs.
The first five Zeppelin albums are classic...everybody loves Led Zeppelin and Jimmy Page.
When we were (and still) playing the LPs in the 60s, 70s (50s for my elders, and 40s) we were in heaven of rock-and-roll music.
With their third LP they added some magic...plus that fun manual wheel on the front cover.
We don't get that on CD. Like the Rolling Stones ... zipper LP and 3-dimensional satanic LP one.
How can we forgive our youth and the way we grew up through our vinyls. ...Never, it's part of what we are today, and much more so than the digital era.
Because it has way more history to it, and more history means more emotional musical impact...period!
The smart people knew that, and still today...so the renewal of vinyl and new mastering recording techniques are an extreme welcome in today's world we live in.
I truly think that.

They can take anything away from us, but they'll never take away our memories.