Digital volume control vs analog volume control

[Willem]

First, don't buy the Bluesound Node, a Wiim streamer (any model) does the same and is a lot cheaper with better dac's.

And digital volume control is often less affecting the sound quality than analog volume control. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but when done right, both will be almost transparent in reality.

You can also buy aan Ncore amp with the (exellent) dac inside, so you can use any digital device on it like the Audiophonics SAW-S250NC. It's an Ncore 252 amp and an ESS based dac in one device. You can connect your phone or computer to it as streamer, or use something like the Wiim Mini with digital (toslink) out to the amp. Both toghetter is 1k€ in their shop.

Nad makes also models that intergrate the Bleusound software with Hypex amps, but they are expensive. It's a one box solution, tested and from a big company with support. But it has a hefty price. The M33 and the M10V3 are models like that that may suit you and both use NC (Hypex Ncore) amp designs, but build by NAD (under licence). That would be the only way i would use the BlueOS, because there the dac is also a lot better than the Node. But a Wiim streamer and a Ncore amp like those from Audiophoncs (next to a lot of other builders) does the same for cheaper. It's just a bit more complex to set up and use.

The problem with many integrateds is that they do not allow you to insert something like the miniDSP 2x4HD between the pre and power stages to equalize subwoofers with e.g. Multi Sub Optimizer.

 

[Waxx]

The problem with many integrateds is that they do not allow you to insert something like the miniDSP 2x4HD between the pre and power stages to equalize subwoofers with e.g. Multi Sub Optimizer.

With the NAD M33 that is not needed as they have Dirac and sub filters already build into, and in a higher resolution than that (old) MiniDSP 2x4 HD. For most that is enough. But if you need more flexibility, there are tons of options out there. But the OP wanted a simple setup...

 

[earlevel]

Nothing wrong with 3-5 times as much as your current speakers max rating. Just use the volume knob appropriately. If you have unsupervised children with access to your gear, some gear can have a max volume set or you can just set it up so the kids don't have access to use.

One drawback: 5x is +14 dB. Amps typically work at full amplification, so you're going to get that much extra boost to whatever noise floor you can't turn down going in. Exactly what that is dependent on what it's connected to. I'm not saying this is paramount, assuming the pre-electronics is top gear, but it can be a consideration to factor in. Johnson-Nyquist (~-130 dBu) being the absolute floor, the actual noise and whether it terminates in a passive pad or electronics whatever noise level—and whether the sum of all that matters compared to the amp's own noise floor versus a lower powered alternative.

Whatever listening level you use, you'll have 14 dB less signal for your SNR, to offset the amp's boost.

Again, not saying this is necessarily a critical issue, but in a world where people scrutinize whether one DAC's SINAD is a dB better than another...

 

[renoxd]

Guys on the Wiim forum already told me that I shouldn't worry about that, but I still have some concerns.

My gear:
Wiim Ultra (Preamp) (Youtube Music - often not great recordings) via USB -> DX7 Pro (Pure DAC) via XLR -> Fosi V3 Mono -> Heco Aurora 700 (92dB speakers)

Only for test purposes, I used DX7 Pro as a pre, and passed not touched signal from Wiim to Topping, to easily check what dB I usually listen to - its not that simple when using the Wiim device as a preamp. There is no clear indication of -dB

It seems that my listening level is between -65dB to -30dB (where -30dB is already loud)

Should I be worried about this very noticeable decrease of volume level in the digital domain? Especially if I listen Youtube Music - not already great quality tracks?

Isn't the dynamics and decay of sound limited by this? When I use preamp like Emotiva, I feel more air in the music, and the sounds last longer before they fade away.

 

[Purité Audio]

The background ‘noise’ of an ‘average’ room ( that is a silent room with certainly no music playing) is around 35dB.
Keith

 

[Roland68]

Guys on the Wiim forum already told me that I shouldn't worry about that, but I still have some concerns.

My gear:
Wiim Ultra (Preamp) (Youtube Music - often not great recordings) via USB -> DX7 Pro (Pure DAC) via XLR -> Fosi V3 Mono -> Heco Aurora 700 (92dB speakers)

Only for test purposes, I used DX7 Pro as a pre, and passed not touched signal from Wiim to Topping, to easily check what dB I usually listen to - its not that simple when using the Wiim device as a preamp. There is no clear indication of -dB

It seems that my listening level is between -65dB to -30dB (where -30dB is already loud)

Should I be worried about this very noticeable decrease of volume level in the digital domain? Especially if I listen Youtube Music - not already great quality tracks?

Isn't the dynamics and decay of sound limited by this? When I use preamp like Emotiva, I feel more air in the music, and the sounds last longer before they fade away.

You do lose resolution with digital volume control, of course, but it's far below what would be audible. Besides, devices like the WiiM and modern DACs are optimized so that this isn't a problem. In a direct comparison, you wouldn't hear any difference.

Have you set the V3 to low gain?

An alternative would be a DAC with analog volume control or an analog preamplifier after the DAC, which would be technically the same thing.

 

[renoxd]

Have you set the V3 to low gain?

Low / high gain relates only to RCA, I use XLR.

but it's far below what would be audible.

Even with 16bits tracks converted to 24bits , when listening -60dB? What about dynamics? How are dynamics/microtransients related to noise floor? What about the early sound fading out vs longer decay with analog preamps? Is it connected to volume control in the digital domain?

 

[Newman]

Even with 16bits tracks converted to 24bits , when listening -60dB?

16 bit converted to 24 is still 16 bit.

What about dynamics? How are dynamics/microtransients related to noise floor? What about the early sound fading out vs longer decay with analog preamps?

I know what you are trying to say. The real issue is whether the electronic noise floor is getting higher than the listening environment noise floor. But turning the volume down won't lift the noise, that happens when you turn it up. As a general rule, if you aren't hearing any electronic noise during quiet passages while playing the program material at a fairly high listening level, then your dynamics and decay concerns are unwarranted.

Is it connected to volume control in the digital domain?

Your references to "longer decay with analog preamps" and the above question suggests to me that you are in thrall to a myth: that only digital volume attenuation (D) reduces resolution and SNR. Believe me, analog attenuation (A) generally is not superior. I outlined this in post #28, repeated below:-

[by Newman]
If the noise is in the program, D and A both attenuate it.

If the noise is in the power amp, D and A both don’t attenuate it.

If the noise is in the preamp’s analogue circuitry, D doesn’t attenuate it, and A only attenuates noise in that part of the circuit which is upstream of the volume control, and does not attenuate noise in the analog circuitry downstream of the volume control. Since it would be poor design to put the analog volume control right at the output terminals, one would expect some analog circuitry downstream of the volume control, which the volume control will not attenuate.

Plus, analogue IC type volume controls introduce their own noise and distortion.

cheers

 

[Ropeburn]

Guys on the Wiim forum already told me that I shouldn't worry about that, but I still have some concerns.

My gear:
Wiim Ultra (Preamp) (Youtube Music - often not great recordings) via USB -> DX7 Pro (Pure DAC) via XLR -> Fosi V3 Mono -> Heco Aurora 700 (92dB speakers)

Only for test purposes, I used DX7 Pro as a pre, and passed not touched signal from Wiim to Topping, to easily check what dB I usually listen to - its not that simple when using the Wiim device as a preamp. There is no clear indication of -dB

It seems that my listening level is between -65dB to -30dB (where -30dB is already loud)

Should I be worried about this very noticeable decrease of volume level in the digital domain? Especially if I listen Youtube Music - not already great quality tracks?

Isn't the dynamics and decay of sound limited by this? When I use preamp like Emotiva, I feel more air in the music, and the sounds last longer before they fade away.

I use an even simpler system: YouTube (mostly), Bluetooth (LDAC) to DAC (SMSL DO100), then to Hypex poweramp and speakers (Aurora 700 too). Software volume at maximum, which is actually -6dB on YouTube, but that's another story, then volume control on DAC.

Excellent result. Finest "decay" possible, from full blast to zero (room noise).

Because properly implemented digital volume control is entirely unproblematic. It's done in 32bit, which means if you start with, say, 16bit data, and then attenuate it by -96dB (vanishingly low), you still have all the original data. The only limit is the noise floor of the DAC itself, and the amp of course. Both combined are low enough to be completely inaudible in-room. I have to hold my ear directly to the tweeter to hear the faintest hint of noise.

Irrelevant concerns. Absolutely perfect quality for all practical purposes. When things get really loud, the only audible noise comes from the music itself.

Don't worry, it's all fine. Enjoy the music.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I did some math which made me worry less about digital volume control:

I start with a MiniDSP 2x4 HD which has a signal-to-noise ratio of -104 dB at 2V.
My e3 A7 amplifier increases that noise by 25 dB due to gain to -79 dB.
My Revel F206 speakers are 86 dB efficient at 2V ([email protected]) which increases the noise to +7 dB.
I listen at 2 meters, which decreases noise by 6 dB to +1 dB.

In my high floor apartment where noise is typically 35-45 dB, the noise of my system at my listening position is 30 dB+ below the noise floor, so no problem. Since figuring all of this out I have been using digital volume control for the past few years and not worrying about gain staging or channel imbalance or finicky volume pots.

 

[levimax]

I have a pre-amp I built years ago with a real Alps 27 mm "Blue Velvet" motorized pot. While the volume controls on my current system are now digital, and I am sure "better", I sure do miss the "feel" of a high quality pot attached to a nice heavy knob.

 

[DVinylfan]

There is only one best volume control.
It goes up to 11.

 

[Palladium]

I use an even simpler system: YouTube (mostly), Bluetooth (LDAC) to DAC (SMSL DO100), then to Hypex poweramp and speakers (Aurora 700 too). Software volume at maximum, which is actually -6dB on YouTube, but that's another story, then volume control on DAC.

Excellent result. Finest "decay" possible, from full blast to zero (room noise).

Because properly implemented digital volume control is entirely unproblematic. It's done in 32bit, which means if you start with, say, 16bit data, and then attenuate it by -96dB (vanishingly low), you still have all the original data. The only limit is the noise floor of the DAC itself, and the amp of course. Both combined are low enough to be completely inaudible in-room. I have to hold my ear directly to the tweeter to hear the faintest hint of noise.

Irrelevant concerns. Absolutely perfect quality for all practical purposes. When things get really loud, the only audible noise comes from the music itself.

Don't worry, it's all fine. Enjoy the music.

Yeah I dunno why some are overthinking this when you really only need 60dB SNR tops above 30dB of background noise.

 

[Chrispy]

Yeah I dunno why some are overthinking this when you really only need 60dB SNR tops above 30dB of background noise.

"golden ears"

 

[renoxd]

So it turns out that the longer decay and the music's more free flow around the room are caused by the preamp, that adds something from itself.

I don't have golden ears, but my hearing is very good. At least I know it's not because of the digital domain. Thanks

And yes, with my Topping DX7 pro I hear a dead silence - no noise in the background with any volume levels

 

[Ben Jenssen]

Just throwing in my two cents. I'm a complete amateur with electronics, but have been working with audio/recording/studio for a long time, and my hearing is still quite good.

Since I retired, I've set up a little mixing studio in my living room, as I live alone. I powered my Dynaudios with an old Sony TA-FA30ES for a few years, and I quickly found that setting the Sony's volume to full, and reducing the E30II output to around -28db gave better results than controlling the volume on the Sony. I've been used to poweramps without a volume control anyway.

So for me, letting the analog equipment run at full output and controling volume digitally, simply sounds better. I had quite a loud noise floor with the Sony this way, but the little extra SQ and punch made up for it.

I've since swapped the Sony for a Topping Mini 300, a class D amp with less power than the Sony, and with both the DAC and the Mini at full blast, I control all volume from my mac. Soundsource app helps alot. Sounds good, and the noise floor is gone.

I must admit; I sometimes miss the 'little extra colour' I got from the old Sony, but being a mixer foremost, I like clean and neutral.

 

[Mnyb]

Background noise is sometimes better than you think ( but digital volume is still good enough ) .

it's frequency dependent mostly bass from traffic and HVAC not in the sensitive midrange where you actually hear something .

 

[MaxwellsEq]

So it turns out that the longer decay and the music's more free flow around the room are caused by the preamp, that adds something from itself

Unless the preamplifier is broken it won't add to or subtract from the decay captured in the recording.

 

[renoxd]

Unless the preamplifier is broken it won't add to or subtract from the decay captured in the recording.

I can hear the difference in a blind test every time. It's probably just designed to distort the sound in such a way. I doubt Emotiva deliberately breaks its preamplifier, whatever that "breaks" might mean. Unless by "breaks" you mean it doesn't reproduce the sound 100% faithfully - then it can be the truth

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I can hear the difference in a blind test every time. It's probably just designed to distort the sound in such a way. I doubt Emotiva deliberately breaks its preamplifier, whatever that "breaks" might mean. Unless by "breaks" you mean it doesn't reproduce the sound 100% faithfully - then it can be the truth

Please can you escribe your methodology for blinding and setting levels to be within 0.01V of eachother.

It's worth adding that preamplifiers do have some strengths: well designed ones do have good, high impedance input buffers and good low impedance output buffers which can be beneficial in some use-cases. But of course they also contribute noise and distortion as well as potentially band-limiting.