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Digital volume control vs analog volume control

For the fun, you should ask ChatGpt what is the meaning of the phrase "digital volume damping", because to me, it's means nothing. :)
 
I used a pair of 10k pots when all I had was a CD player, a big amp, and some big speakers.

My little tests more recently with digital volume control indicates that by the time you have decreased the volume far enough to cause a problem, there's nothing left to hear anyway.

Here's a digital attenuation example:

Original signal in audacity
Attenuated 60dB - that goes from normal loud down to barely hear anything at all coming from the speakers
Zoomed in to show what's left of the signal (note the scale)

1733175961143.png



That leaves me not worrying about it either way.
 
Instead of littering the forum with another post I tought I might ask here.

I´ve been suggested to buy a power amp (Hypex Ncore 252 or more powerful) and a bluesound Node (2024) to simplify my setup and future proof it. I´ve been asking ChatGpt a lot of questions about this, and it warns me about "digital volume damping". As I´ve interpretated that means that when I reduce the volume (spl) on the node the digital signal weakens which in turn reduces the sound quality? I like to listen at various spl´s from low 40-50 to around a 100 db (when in that mode).

Is this true?
Well, if it's true it's a useless truth...

Ideally you'd want a power amp that is just powerful enough to drive your speakers to as loud as you'd want to hear them, including enough headroom to not degrade the sound. It doesn't matter whether you use analog attenuation or digital.

Assuming digital and especially 24-bit, there is so much headroom that degradation from dialing bits back won't make an audible difference.

For instance, how much lower level are you going to listen at, while still being able to hear the music adequately enough to tell if there is degradation? You're not going to listen at 96 dB lower, for instance, leaving you with essentially 8-bit audio (ideally—in reality the low bits are relatively high-noise), because you'll scarcely hear the slightest sound from your speakers. More likely, you'll want something closer to a 30 dB range at most, giving up 5 bits of your 24-bit audio. That leave 19-bits, but you won't even hear the bottom bits of that, you'd only be able to hear 10-12 bits max at that reduced volume, so you've still got a crazy amount of untapped resolution left. (Using the same scenario, 16-bit audio still holds up pretty well.)

As others have said, don't count on chatGPT and the like for anything other than an outline to consider. Artificial Intelligence is like artificial turf—it sounds intelligent from a distance, but beware of thinking it is able to tap into a greater truth.

Example #1: A well-known Stanford professor, PhD in electrical engineering, posted one of those brain-fooler images on social media, that looks like it shows different colored balls. In discussion, he commented that chatGPT revealed that all balls were in fact gray. I enlarged the image and pointed out that they were not even close to gray, but a mixture of colors, the main tint being golden. He replied that, he didn't understand how chatGPT, given the actual RGB values to examine, thought it was gray. But that's the thing—charGPT simply recognized the image, then regurgitated what other people said about it. It had the RGB, knows what gray is, but didn't have the intelligence to check for itself.

Example #2: Saw this recently. Someone wanted to test whether chatGPT could get fooled by a paradox. The first test was giving it a paradox involving an alligator. ChatGPT said that it couldn't answer the question, because it was a paradox. The guy wanted to see if it really knew, or had just found information on the puzzle. The second test involved choosing 1 or 2, with the conditions stated. The AI chose #2 as the solution. The guy pointed out the problem with choosing #2, the AI noted that was true and changed its answer to #1. So the guy pointed out the problem with choosing #1, and the AI again noted he was correct and changed it to #2.

The moral of the story is, AI is really good at presenting solutions that look like truth, but may not be truth. My concern with AI is that it will get better and better to the point it's a viable substitute for truth, in very complicated matters that are tough for humans. But at that point, good luck convincing people that it's wrong in a particular case, because people will have accepted that it does better than a human.

(For fun, I here's an image I made using actual gray balls, simulating the trick...)

spheres.jpg
 
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Thank you guys @Willem @unpluggged @Andreas007 @Scytales @RayDunzl and @earlevel :)

I know very well that ChatGTP is not reliable, that why I wanted to ask the question here.

Now that I have all of your attention, can I ask question? (sorry for slightly derailing the thread).


My end-goal is to buy a good enough setup and then step away from all things hifi (asr, yt, reddit etc.) and just enjoy the music. Sort of "set and forget".

We recently bought a new house with a quite big livingroom (430 sq ft). I´ve set aside around 5k, that will be used for amp/streamer + speakers. I want it to have a (relatively) small foot print and be future proof. My plan was to get Apollon NCx500ST and Bluesound Node (2024). I like the BlueOS (have it today in my current setup) and it has Dirac which would be useful as Im not into tinkering with PEQ etc. Would that work? That would leave me with around 3k for speakers and a sub down the road.

Am I missing something crucial?
 
I would choose the speakers first and the amplifier next.

Reason is that the necessary amplifier power is dictated by the speaker. Also the Apollon you mentioned is very power powerful and shouldn't have any problems to drive most speakers, you never know for sure before the preferred speakers have been chosen. Perhaps you will end up with very high sensitivity speakers that would not require as many power as this Apollon can produce. In which case, you would be able to save on amplifier cost.

The loudspeakers is by far the most important components of any set-up.
 
I would choose the speakers first and the amplifier next.

Reason is that the necessary amplifier power is dictated by the speaker. Also the Apollon you mentioned is very power powerful and shouldn't have any problems to drive most speakers, you never know for sure before the preferred speakers have been chosen. Perhaps you will end up with very high sensitivity speakers that would not require as many power as this Apollon can produce. In which case, you would be able to save on amplifier cost.

The loudspeakers is by far the most important components of any set-up.

My plan of attack was to get the amp/streamer, which I thought would be possible to drive all (most?) of the potential speakers on my list? And then visit local hifi stores and audition speaker and eventully order perhaps my top three and test them at home an finally buy one.

Perhaps thats not a good idea?
 
My plan of attack was to get the amp/streamer, which I thought would be possible to drive all (most?) of the potential speakers on my list? And then visit local hifi stores and audition speaker and eventully order perhaps my top three and test them at home an finally buy one.

Perhaps thats not a good idea?
I would also advise you against it based on decades of experience.
First, choose the speakers that suit the room, music genres and personal preferences, then the amplifier.
On the one hand, it is absolute nonsense to buy an amplifier in which only 10-20% of the power is used, the background noise then has a much greater effect, but on the other hand, not every amplifier can cope with every loudspeaker, e.g. topic Impedance behavior...
 
There is nothing wrong with the idea, and it is never wrong to have some spare power. Hypex and Purifi class D amps also have such low output impedances that they are load independent and therefore speaker indifferent. My system has a total power of almost 1500 watt (2x140 watt high passed power amp, three subs with 330, 400 and 500 watt) and I think I use all of that power in an admitedly somewhat larger room. And indeed you do not have to bother with listening to amplifiers in this price bracket. If you are into a clutterless system, you may want to consider a power amp with auto on/off, to be located out of sight, such as the Boxem offerings. Beyond that, what matters is dsp room eq of at least the subs, and the user interface of the DAC/streamer. Make sure the latter has a high enough output so you can use a low gain setting on the power amp.
 
I would also advise you against it based on decades of experience.
First, choose the speakers that suit the room, music genres and personal preferences, then the amplifier.
On the one hand, it is absolute nonsense to buy an amplifier in which only 10-20% of the power is used, the background noise then has a much greater effect, but on the other hand, not every amplifier can cope with every loudspeaker, e.g. topic Impedance behavior...

In the amp decription it says: "Power: With an impressive 600 watts at both 4Ohm and 2Ohm, and 380 watts at 8Ohm". Seems to be able to work with most speakers? Or am I missunderstanding?
 
There is nothing wrong with the idea, and it is never wrong to have some spare power. Hypex and Purifi class D amps also have such low output impedances that they are load independent and therefore speaker indifferent. My system has a total power of almost 1500 watt (2x140 watt high passed power amp, three subs with 330, 400 and 500 watt) and I think I use all of that power in an admitedly somewhat larger room. And indeed you do not have to bother with listening to amplifiers in this price bracket. If you are into a clutterless system, you may want to consider a power amp with auto on/off, to be located out of sight, such as the Boxem offerings. Beyond that, what matters is dsp room eq of at least the subs, and the user interface of the DAC/streamer. Make sure the latter has a high enough output so you can use a low gain setting on the power amp.

Thank you! would this Audiophonics amp be better as it has 12v trigger? Boxem looks nice, but they are quite a bit pricier and I will most likely be placed out of site.
 
If your streamer has a trigger output it will work as well. These amplifiers are all excellent and will all sound the same as long as they have enough power (this one does).
 
If your streamer has a trigger output it will work as well. These amplifiers are all excellent and will all sound the same as long as they have enough power (this one does).
According to the manual it has?

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First, don't buy the Bluesound Node, a Wiim streamer (any model) does the same and is a lot cheaper with better dac's.

And digital volume control is often less affecting the sound quality than analog volume control. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but when done right, both will be almost transparent in reality.

You can also buy aan Ncore amp with the (exellent) dac inside, so you can use any digital device on it like the Audiophonics SAW-S250NC. It's an Ncore 252 amp and an ESS based dac in one device. You can connect your phone or computer to it as streamer, or use something like the Wiim Mini with digital (toslink) out to the amp. Both toghetter is 1k€ in their shop.

Nad makes also models that intergrate the Bleusound software with Hypex amps, but they are expensive. It's a one box solution, tested and from a big company with support. But it has a hefty price. The M33 and the M10V3 are models like that that may suit you and both use NC (Hypex Ncore) amp designs, but build by NAD (under licence). That would be the only way i would use the BlueOS, because there the dac is also a lot better than the Node. But a Wiim streamer and a Ncore amp like those from Audiophoncs (next to a lot of other builders) does the same for cheaper. It's just a bit more complex to set up and use.
 
First, don't buy the Bluesound Node, a Wiim streamer (any model) does the same and is a lot cheaper with better dac's.

And digital volume control is often less affecting the sound quality than analog volume control. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but when done right, both will be almost transparent in reality.

You can also buy aan Ncore amp with the (exellent) dac inside, so you can use any digital device on it like the Audiophonics SAW-S250NC. It's an Ncore 252 amp and an ESS based dac in one device. You can connect your phone or computer to it as streamer, or use something like the Wiim Mini with digital (toslink) out to the amp. Both toghetter is 1k€ in their shop.

Nad makes also models that intergrate the Bleusound software with Hypex amps, but they are expensive. It's a one box solution, tested and from a big company with support. But it has a hefty price. The M33 and the M10V3 are models like that that may suit you and both use NC (Hypex Ncore) amp designs, but build by NAD (under licence). That would be the only way i would use the BlueOS, because there the dac is also a lot better than the Node. But a Wiim streamer and a Ncore amp like those from Audiophoncs (next to a lot of other builders) does the same for cheaper. It's just a bit more complex to set up and use.

Wow, this is not easy to navigate. I apprechiate all you suggestions, but it leads me with more questions than awnsers :D

If im correct the Wiim Ultra uses ESS ES9038 Q2M Sabre DAC-chipet and the Node (2024) uses ESS SABRE® DAC (ES9039Q2M). What exactley is the difference? Is it audibel?

The M33 is really expensive and out of my budget.
 
In the amp decription it says: "Power: With an impressive 600 watts at both 4Ohm and 2Ohm, and 380 watts at 8Ohm". Seems to be able to work with most speakers? Or am I missunderstanding?
My answer won't change even if you ask the question multiple times. There are many reasons why this is not the best idea. An amplifier should always have a little more power than the maximum required for the speakers, but not 3 or 5 times as much. At the latest if you have a child in the apartment, this can result in a very expensive end to the speakers.
If you use Heco Aurora 700 or 1000 speakers, for example, you will never need more than 100-120 watts, with a subwoofer a maximum of 50-60 watts.

A Sabaj A30a delivers 2 x 200 watts at 4 ohms and costs half as much or less.
As it is one of the few real digital amplifiers, it does not need a DAC and is ideal if you have digital sources but only one analog source (or none). The signal is output directly from digital to analog via PWM without a DAC, which also answers your questions about the DAC chip, as there isn't one.
There are now a few people who have replaced their amplifier, which is x times more expensive, with an A30a.
 
My answer won't change even if you ask the question multiple times. There are many reasons why this is not the best idea. An amplifier should always have a little more power than the maximum required for the speakers, but not 3 or 5 times as much. At the latest if you have a child in the apartment, this can result in a very expensive end to the speakers.
If you use Heco Aurora 700 or 1000 speakers, for example, you will never need more than 100-120 watts, with a subwoofer a maximum of 50-60 watts.

A Sabaj A30a delivers 2 x 200 watts at 4 ohms and costs half as much or less.
As it is one of the few real digital amplifiers, it does not need a DAC and is ideal if you have digital sources but only one analog source (or none). The signal is output directly from digital to analog via PWM without a DAC, which also answers your questions about the DAC chip, as there isn't one.
There are now a few people who have replaced their amplifier, which is x times more expensive, with an A30a.
Nothing wrong with 3-5 times as much as your current speakers max rating. Just use the volume knob appropriately. If you have unsupervised children with access to your gear, some gear can have a max volume set or you can just set it up so the kids don't have access to use.
 
Wow, this is not easy to navigate. I apprechiate all you suggestions, but it leads me with more questions than awnsers :D

If im correct the Wiim Ultra uses ESS ES9038 Q2M Sabre DAC-chipet and the Node (2024) uses ESS SABRE® DAC (ES9039Q2M). What exactley is the difference? Is it audibel?

The M33 is really expensive and out of my budget.
You don't have to look at what chip they use, the tests done with the Bluesound show that it's relative noisy, especially with such a good dac chip. There are test here in the review index, and on other sites also. Google it.

The Wiim is just better engineered, lower noise and cheaper.
 
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