Digital preamp vs Windows volume control

[spittiz]

I didn't manage to find any discussions on this (I'm sure there has been), so thought I'd ask myself.

The general consensus on Windows volume control seems to be that it should be left at 100% because messing with it introduces conversion errors, please correct if that statement is wrong.

How does adjusting the preamp setting in e.g. EQ APO Peace plugin to a negative value differ from adjusting the windows volume down from 100%?

 

[twsecrest]

Leave the Windows volume at 100% to send a strong signal to whatever device your sending audio to.
Use something with WASAPI to keep the signal clean.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

The general consensus on Windows volume control seems to be that it should be left at 100% because messing with it introduces conversion errors, please correct if that statement is wrong.

I think the real consensus is to not use Windows VC at all. Go Wasapi or ASIO.

 

[spittiz]

Leave the Windows volume at 100% to send a strong signal to whatever device your sending audio to.
Use something with WASAPI to keep the signal clean.

I think the real consensus is to not use Windows VC at all. Go Wasapi or ASIO.

Not a good option for me since I use Spotify a lot and there's no official support for Wasapi or ASIO in it.

And there's plenty of people here using EQ APO etc, I've just assumed that you wouldn't use Wasapi/ASIO in that case since it kinda goes against the whole idea of direct sound (I'm aware there's foobar plugins for it etc).

Hence the question how the preamp setting in e.g. Peace plugin differs from adjusting the Windows volume level, on a "technical" level.

 

[dualazmak]

I agree with Kal's comment, especially on ASIO.

I have "historical" and "practical" reasons for sticking to "all in ASIO I/O" in my PC based multichannel audio system. Recently I had this discussion also at here. Please allow me copy-pasting my comments as follows;

I started to use 192kHz 24bit USB DAC in 2009, the first one was RATOC RAL-24192UT1 on Windows 7 Pro 64 bit PC. After that I purchased ONKYO DAC-1000, KORG DS-DAC-10, OPPO SONICA DAC and finally OKTO DAC8PRO, with Windows 7, Windows Vista, Windows XP and Windows 10.

Throughout the usage of these DACs with Windows PC, I have been always sticking to ASIO I/O fully independent from Windows OS audio services including Kernel Streaming, Direct Sound and WASAPI; as you may know, there have been several confusions, change of policies and inconsistency problems with Windows audio services especially associated with the major version-up of the OS, i.e. 7 to Vista, Vista to XP and also XP to 10.

Even though current WASAPI Exclusive mode on Windows 10 maybe be quite OK, I experienced uncomfortable and sometimes nearly harmful (to my speakers) kernel sound intrusion incidents when I used Kernel Streaming, Direct sound or WASAPI (non-exclusive), and therefore, I still do not fully trust Windows OS oriented sound I/O services including WASAPI Exclusive. I also heard in Japanese audio enthu forums that several recent major update of Windows 10 caused unexpected initialization(?) and/or inconsistency problems with WASAPI service.

As far as we use full USB ASIO I/O with using each of the specific DAC dedicated ASIO driver, we can avoid any problems/issues associated with Windows updates. In other words, I always would like to eliminate (or minimize) Microsoft's direct involvement in audio I/O.

 

[dualazmak]

You would please let me add a little bit more...

"Where and how to control master volume and rerative gains" is one of the major issues in multichannel audio using EQ and/or DSP, and I intesively discussed this issue in my project.

As I am using "all ASIO I/O in 192 KHz 24 bit processing", I (we) should always carefully avoid possible bit-loss in small volume and/or small gain, but of course I (we) should also avoid clipping of the audio signal with large volume and/or large gain, like discussed at here.

Currently I am using JRiver's volume control as the master volume with all the downstream gains and volumes adjusted/fixed like in these diagrams; of course all of the Windows Kernel Streaming, Direct Sound, WASAPI, etc. are comletely muted-off.

and,

Please visit this post for further details.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Not a good option for me since I use Spotify a lot and there's no official support for Wasapi or ASIO in it.

And there's plenty of people here using EQ APO etc, I've just assumed that you wouldn't use Wasapi/ASIO in that case since it kinda goes against the whole idea of direct sound (I'm aware there's foobar plugins for it etc).

Understood but my choice (if I used Spotify) would be to play it into JRiver via the JRiver WDM driver.

 

[tvrgeek]

Kal, Can you hear the difference? Personally I use an analog preamp as I am all analog from the single DAC on. I intend to swap WMP for Audirvana and AISO. I was able to remove EQ APO by additional adjustments to my crossovers, active and passive.

Dual, why do you have two caps in series to your ST?

 

[spittiz]

Understood but my choice (if I used Spotify) would be to play it into JRiver via the JRiver WDM driver.

Thank you for mentioning it, I wasn't aware of this solution.

 

[escape2]

I think the real consensus is to not use Windows VC at all. Go Wasapi or ASIO.

Just to make sure I understood your point: Using volume/dB slider in Foobar2000 is OK if I'm using ASIO?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, Can you hear the difference?

Cannot comment on Spotify because I do not use it. The only streaming source I use regularly is Qobuz and, via the same DAC, there is no difference between Qobuz to DAC, via JRiver or via Roon.

Personally I use an analog preamp as I am all analog from the single DAC on.

Of course. My DACs connect directly to power amps.

 

[Tsuchi]

My 2 cents,
I’ve tinkered with the Windows volume setting now and again when it was convenient (generally I like to keep it at 100%). I also use Foobar WASAPI and Spotify Premium.

Frankly, if there are any audible differences in sound between them all it’s negligible. I’ve A and B’ed between them and it’s really hard to say if there is any kind of sonic difference.

 

[krabapple]

WASAPI all the way. And 100% volume on the player (Foobar2k) -- which is actually a requirement, if you play any raw DTS or Dolby Digital (AC3) files, like I do.

 

[spittiz]

My 2 cents,
I’ve tinkered with the Windows volume setting now and again when it was convenient (generally I like to keep it at 100%). I also use Foobar WASAPI and Spotify Premium.

Frankly, if there are any audible differences in sound between them all it’s negligible. I’ve A and B’ed between them and it’s really hard to say if there is any kind of sonic difference.

Yeah I'm not concerned about audible differences tbh, I haven't been able to distinguish flac files from my CD's and spotify high quality. I'm just curious what the difference is between adjusting volume on a digital preamp vs the windows volume setting when looking at the signal.

 

[Absolute]

I hate computer fiddling, is the reason for recommending ASIO just to make sure something bad doesn't happen? Or is Windows doing some processing even when you check the "disable all processing" on win10?

 

[dualazmak]

Dual, why do you have two caps in series to your ST?

The 10 uF Cap for ST (and 10 uF for Be-TW, 68 uF for Be-SQ) are just for protection purposes during my present intensive tests and evaluations of various amps, and these protection Caps may be removed after I would fully decide and install the specific three amps.

The 1.5 uF Cap for ST will remain all the way for -6 dB/Oct low-cut at ca. 8,800 Hz, since the third amp is feeding Be-SQ plus ST, as shown in the scheme. In this sense, I may better now to have 1.5 uF Cap behind the 10 uF Cap, theoretically, .

BTW, please refer to this post and this post for the 22 Ohm fine tuning resistors in parallel with the drivers, Be-SQ, Be-TW and ST.

 

[spittiz]

I hate computer fiddling, is the reason for recommending ASIO just to make sure something bad doesn't happen? Or is Windows doing some processing even when you check the "disable all processing" on win10?

I'm not the right person to answer this, but here's a post from @amirm a few years back about it:

I don't know about it being worse than Mac or Linux but yes, using the volume control or the Windows stack will measurably degrade performance. I plan to show that in a future article.

Briefly, when you use the audio channel in Windows normally, all sound gets converted to floating point internal representation. They are also converted to a single sample rate and bit depth defined in the Sound control panel for your default output device (same thing happens in MacOS). Mixing of sound from multiple apps and volume control is performed. Then the final data is converted back to PCM integer data with dither and sent out to the sound card. All of this processing will change the performance of the system and hence the reason people will say this pipeline is not "bit exact."

WASAPI and ASIO interfaces were designed to get around this issue. When you use them in exclusive mode, you will get a direct pipeline to the sound card and no processing occurs. You will lose Windows volume control and any mixing of sound from multiple channels. But you get "bit exact" performance. For best fidelity this is the mode you should be using and is how I test everything.

I don't know if he ever wrote that article mentioned, I'd be happy if someone could link it if that's the case.

I suspect @amirm could also shine some light on my original question, digital preamp gain setting vs windows volume control?

 

[dualazmak]

Thank you, spittiz,

I fully agree with amirm's point of "WASAPI and ASIO interfaces were designed to get around this issue. When you use them in exclusive mode, you will get a direct pipeline to the sound card and no processing occurs. You will lose Windows volume control and any mixing of sound from multiple channels. But you get "bit exact" performance. For best fidelity this is the mode you should be using and is how I test everything. "

In my case, I have another reason for using all ASIO I/O routing; with ASIO USB drivers and ASIO4ALL, we can establish very flexible unlimited number of I/O routing channels simulataneously in/out for software crossover EKIO, even I can use several different DACs simultaneously even though the sync issue exists for ASIO output routing into multiple DACs. In case with using one OKTO DAC8PRO, of course we have no sync issue for 8-channel analog output into multiple amps.

 

[bennetng]

Just to make sure I understood your point: Using volume/dB slider in Foobar2000 is OK if I'm using ASIO?

I hate computer fiddling, is the reason for recommending ASIO just to make sure something bad doesn't happen? Or is Windows doing some processing even when you check the "disable all processing" on win10?

Try these files with ASIO and WASAPI exclusive mode, with different playback software, and different volume controls in your signal chain, including playback software, mixer/control panel of your soundcard/interface (if available), Windows volume control and so on. Also, try the files in non-exclusive modes, and see if "disable all processing" makes a difference or not.

For ASIO4all users, read this to understand what it really is:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-difference-in-sound-quality.7029/post-413398

Also, many people don't understand what is an API and what is a driver, so read this as well:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-difference-in-sound-quality.7029/post-410516

 

[dualazmak]

Hello bennetng,

I really appreciate having the links to your nice threads and posts on ASIO4all and API.

In any way, in my case, I established all ASIO I/O 192 kHz 24 bit (bit perfect, I believe) using ASIO4all and individual USB ASIO drivers while all of the windows kernel mixer volumes muted-off, as shown/summarized here and here. In this I/O configuration, I also use VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable and VB-Audio ASIO BRIDGE for flexible routing from JRiver (or Roon) into software crossover EKIO, and flexible output routing from EKIO into DAC(s).

I discussed a lot with Guillaume of LUPISOFT who is developing EKIO for the flexible I/O with ASIO4all and VB-Audio Hi-Fi Cable;
http://www.lupisoft.com/ekio/

In my post here, I wrote;
ASIO4ALL is a quite unique "software/driver", and looking from music player software including JRiver and Roon, it also behaves as if one (virtual) USB hardware audio "device".

ASIO4ALL sits/dominates in front of all the available other ASIO drivers, and together with VB Audio Hi-Fi Cable and ASIO Bridge, we can establish very flexible unlimited number of I/O routings with "independent" crossover software EKIO which has simple intuitive GUI capabilities. Almost all of the EKIO's DSP features, including the XO filter configurations, can be changed while listening to the music.

Especially I like the flexible EKIO-ASIO4ALL output capabilities; with ASIO4ALL, we can assign any of the available USB ASIO drivers for output channel of EKIO, and with EKIO's unlimited number of I/O settings, if needed, we can assign multiple channels into one single DAC, or one output channel into multiple DACs, and the mixture of these. Of course, if we like (even the synchronization issue exists), we may simultaneously assign outputs into multiple DACs, e.g. 8 channels of DAC8PRO plus OPPO SONICA DAC plus DS-DAC1000 plus DS-DAC-10. Or we may very easily inter-change these multiple DACs.