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Different Binding Posts - is it audible?

gp4Jesus

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Not only difficult to hear, difficult to measure!
The resistance change of the entire loop: cable >> terminal >> loudspeaker >> terminal >> cable
Is just about zero.
You missed my reply of an example that…
…reducing the cable resistance less than 1/6 of .1 ohms (0.0149835 ohms) increased the subs’ out put at least 3dB. I had to turn down the subs to balance the tone - everything sounded FAT!

BTW I neglected to mention this was part of a 2 ch home audio system.

I can’t explain how such an incredibly tiny reduction of resistance that was already LOW increased their output that much. I’ve believed for years the low impedance load pulling lots of current* was the chief reason - atypical is or was the 3 ohm impedance. I chose to wire the 2 drivers in each sub in parallel, bi-wired, hardwired & soldered to minimize resistance, presenting the amp w/a 3 ohm load. Had the drivers been 4 ohms each or less I would’ve wired them in series to avoid the likelyhood of owning a large, smokey-smelling,
heavy, aluminum-steel-fiberglass**-copper paper weight.
*rated capable of 30A peaks.
**PCB
 

test1223

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Are you talking about THE binding post itself or the piece, often plastic*, to which the binding posts are mounted?
*on less expensive models
I was referring to the whole terminal made out of black plastic, like the one which was tested here.

What’s the membrane?
Cone of a woofer or midrange driver.

You are right, I didn't used the right terminology. I am obviously not a native speaker, sorry for the confusion.
 

Speedskater

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You missed my reply of an example that…
…reducing the cable resistance less than 1/6 of .1 ohms (0.0149835 ohms) increased the subs’ out put at least 3dB. I had to turn down the subs to balance the tone - everything sounded FAT!
Well no. Electricity and math don't work that way!
Something else changed and it was something big.
 

Rubberduck

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Douglas Self mentioned this in his book "audio power amplifier design" chapter 11, page 300 in 6th Ed.
"Although the amplifier output currents were only passing through about 10 mm of steel (the current went through that length twice, on go and return), the non-linear magnetic effects were sufficient to increase the output distortion from 0.00120% to 0.00227% at 100 W into 8 U at 1 kHz."
The problem here was that the binding post was made from a slightly magnetic or ferrous alloy and thus induced a magnetic distortion because of hysteresis.
We might not be able to hear these levels of distortion, but it's definitely there.
 

gp4Jesus

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I was referring to the whole terminal made out of black plastic, l
A black plastic panel of sorts, maybe an 1/8”’thick that, to which has binding posts mounted? We could replace it w/a material much more rigid, greatly lessening if not eliminating the problem entirely.
“…the one which was tested here.”
Where is here?
You are right, I didn't used the right terminology. I am obviously not a native speaker, sorry for the confusion.
I owe YOU the “I’m sorry.” BTW Where do you live or are from?

Tony
 

gp4Jesus

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So, the drivers were not wired in parallel before you changed the wiring?
I forgot to mention: these are Isobaric subs.

I wired the drivers in each sub in parallel from the start, daisy chaining one to the other. The “post mod” short answer is:
Half the length - 10’ to 5’.
Twice the cables - 10 ga to 7 ga
Equals 1/4 the resistance*.

Now Bi-wired*…
Yeah I know the bi-wiring has nothing* to do w/the resistance*. Drivers in isobaric alignments load the amp differently. Some would argue, at least to a small degree, most of the circuit for each driver is independent thus LESS co-driver interference.

You asked

Tony
 

dc655321

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Drivers in isobaric alignments load the amp differently.

That may be the true, I don't know.
But I do know that changing impedance of a several Ohm circuit by ~0.1 Ohm cannot not account for the audible changes you claim.
 

Katji

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Maybe it depends how woke you are. This guy is so woke, his Sharpie speaks to him.

627508d6-9889-4cc5-8b2e-869c96e48fed-woke_108_lh-0385r.jpg
 

mhardy6647

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Thanks for that! Now bindng posts* "have a sound" too! ...Keep it up, soon we get people arriving with like "Many people say..."


*wtf can't they be called connectors?!
Because one simply cannot interface an interconnect with something as plebian as a connector.
:cool:
 

gp4Jesus

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That may be the true, I don't know.
But I do know that changing impedance of a several Ohm circuit by ~0.1 Ohm cannot not account for the audible changes you claim.
First I must explain “Drivers in isobaric alignments load the amp differently.” as I believe it’s my fault that what wrote and what you read are not the same. Each of the drivers simultaneously loads the amp differently.
OR
At any “snapshot in time” the drivers are “separately” loading the amp differently.

Unlikely that or the micro-minuscule resistance diff could have made that much of difference BUT… well… I agree “it doesn’t add up” so YOU explain why they were louder. Some claim they can hear a diff under 2dB. I’ve read many times “3dB is the smallest diff we can hear.” I’m certain the diff was greater than 3 dB.

Regardless, that why, concerning conductivity, particularly in the lower registers,
I’m anal retentive. Those that claim “gauge isn’t everything,” haven’t enjoyed “the fruits of the pains of conductivity,” like I have. The diff of 8 ga wire inside and out on my current towers was worth the trouble
 

dc655321

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so YOU explain why they were louder.

I cannot explain that experience. There are too many holes and decades to even try...

But, I can explain that changing wire gauge/type as you've described cannot have the effect you ascribed to it.
If your subwoofer circuit went from 3.1 to 3.0 Ohms (being generous) because you changed wire gauge/type, that's a 20*log10(3.1/3) = 0.3dB change in SPL.
Not your claimed 3dB.

Cool story though.
 

pogo

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Drivers in isobaric alignments load the amp differently
Which isobaric sub are you running on which amplifier?
How exactly is the sub connected to the amp?
 

piotrkundu

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Maybe late to the party, but isn't signal travelling on the outside of the conductor/cable and power(current) travels inside the conductor. I think "a lot of metal" in the signal path is also mentioned as bad (what's mentioned as "high mass connection" at 8:55 in the video). Pretty sure XLR sockets should not be a lot of metal.

Have a look for yourself.
The SuperCables CookBook http://www.vacuumstate.com/index.dn...=%3D%0F%9D%DFll%D3V&b=738882.2457851664&sku=7


I'm very much into "cable don't matter" box and all my EE studies tell me that I should be right - but I've been wrong more times and just being stuck in my beliefs will not get me anywhere - so I just might try fancy cables (DIY of course) and fancy binding posts. Then I'll listen AND measure - if both say "no difference" (to me) then I won't spend a dime. That doesn't mean there is no difference to anyone else - just doesn't matter to me.
 

DonH56

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Maybe late to the party, but isn't signal travelling on the outside of the conductor/cable and power(current) travels inside the conductor. I think "a lot of metal" in the signal path is also mentioned as bad (what's mentioned as "high mass connection" at 8:55 in the video).
Almost nothing in that makes sense to me, sorry...
 

MAB

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You missed my reply of an example that…
…reducing the cable resistance less than 1/6 of .1 ohms (0.0149835 ohms) increased the subs’ out put at least 3dB. I had to turn down the subs to balance the tone - everything sounded FAT!
Looks like you discovered a new and important phenomenon. You should redo the experiment with measurements and publish that a small change in circuit impedance results in a huge change in sound power. And show how this discovery is compatible with conservation of energy, even if at first blush it seems at odds with our fundamental understanding of the universe.
BTW I neglected to mention this was part of a 2 ch home audio system.
Is there a reason I missed that makes this relevant? Does the amazing phenomenon not happen in an immersive multi-channel system, or whatever??? Normally I wouldn’t care what or where your system was.
I can’t explain how such an incredibly tiny reduction of resistance that was already LOW increased their output that much.
Yeah. You can’t, but for 3dB you should for sure find an explanation for this magical miracle which is so easily measured!
I’ve believed for years the low impedance load pulling lots of current* was the chief reason - atypical is or was the 3 ohm impedance. I chose to wire the 2 drivers in each sub in parallel, bi-wired, hardwired & soldered to minimize resistance, presenting the amp w/a 3 ohm load. Had the drivers been 4 ohms each or less I would’ve wired them in series to avoid the likelyhood of owning a large, smokey-smelling,
heavy, aluminum-steel-fiberglass**-copper paper weight.
*rated capable of 30A peaks.
**PCB
 

Speedskater

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Maybe late to the party, but isn't signal travelling on the outside of the conductor/cable and power(current) travels inside the conductor.
Well it's the field that travels outside the conductor and the current that travels inside the conductor. (not signal & power).
3 pin XLR connectors are rated at about 15 Amps, in the past they were (in pro audio) sometimes used with loudspeaker cables. But now using the same connectors for interconnects and speaker cables, is an accident about to happen.
 
OP
C

ctrl

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Regarding the use of steel/iron in binding posts (BP), there are interesting measurements in the Buckeye 3 Channel Purifi Amp review thread (thanks @Rick Sykora).
There, when using steel in the amp binding post, a slight increase in distortion at high loads was found.
...binding posts, the tab is primarily made of steel. Steel is a relatively poor conductor and like a loose or oxidized connection can cause distortion
More details can be found in this post from @Rick Sykora.

To see how big the impact of the steel binding posts (BP) are, I compared the Buckeye implementation of the Purifi amp modules to a random other implementation of the Purifi modules - VTV Purifi Amplifier Review with Weiss Buffer.

The most significant effects on distortion occur at high power levels and 4 Ohm impedance dummy load:

1676297917830.png


Far less distortion increase with 8 Ohm impedance dummy load:
1676298413899.png


What do these findings mean in relation to this thread about speaker binding posts?

1. Costs of binding posts without steel

The 6$ binding posts used in the review were not made of steel, but brass. So it is no problem to get inexpensive BP without steel. If you are unsure whether your BP is made of steel, you can check it with a magnet.
1676299498869.png


2. :eek: my BP contains steel, how significant is the sound benefit if I abandon them in a dark street corner for high end BP without steel?

The most important question is, does the steel in the BP significantly change the frequency response in the audible range? The answer is no, the measurements made in the opening post show that the influence is minimal and very likely inaudible (<0.1 dB).

The same is shown by the comparison of the frequency response measurements for the two Purifi amps with and without steel BP (I had to shift the curves a bit against each other so that one could recognize at all that they are each three measurement curves):
1676300153204.png
The different frequency response curves are congruent.
Regarding distortions, see under 3.

To answer the question very specifically, for "inexpensive, basic" speakers, a little steel in the BP has so little effect that it's not worth replacing the BP - IMHO.
With high quality speakers I would replace steel BP, not because I would expect any sound differences, but to keep possible "errors" in playback as small as possible (even if they are inaudible).


3. Why didn't you notice the increase in distortion when using steel BP (made of nails) in your measurements? Loser!

As can be seen above (green arrows in power vs. distortion diagram above), a noticeable increase in distortion only takes place from about 20W power and more.
At 20W the difference in THD+N is -97dB (0.0014%) to -107dB (0.00044%). This is not measurable on an actual speaker itself, since no speaker shows such low distortion at 20W.

The 20W amp output corresponds to a sound pressure level of 100dB with the tweeter I used for my binding post tests. If the distortion only becomes noticeable at this output power, there is no chance to measure it with a driver - there is no driver that has less than 0.00044% THD+N at 100dB SPL.
1676303001534.png

Even for a loudspeaker with a sensitivity of only 84dB@2V@1m, 20W amp power means a sound pressure level of 94dB@1m. A very good speaker has at 94dB SPL in the mid and high range down to 0.1% THD, so the additional 0.0014% THD+N by the BP does not matter.

The tweeter used has less than 0.32% THD above 5kHz at 2.83V (about 90dB) and about 1% THD around 2kHz.
Therefore, it is not possible to measure such small THD changes as occurred with the different amp BP.
 
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