Differences in cd transport

[Stefano_Milano]

Greetings to all

Yesterday I did some experiments with two CD players connected to the DAC Topping D30.
- Marantz CD53 special edition connected with Amazon basics coaxial cable to dac
- Panasonic BDT220EG blu ray player connected with Amazon basics optical cable to dac.
Amp with Hypex modules and JMLab Profil 1990s speakers.
I only listened to classical music of various types.
I noticed big differences in sound.
With the Marantz there is a clear prevalence of medium-high notes. Almost glassy at certain times. The bass was not very present.
With the Panasonic it all seemed more natural. Also the brass were always behind the speakers and never ahead.
How is it possible for a transport to make so much difference?
Or does it depend on the connection? Better the optical one?

 

[digicidal]

Either one or both aren't bit-perfect, have some form of DSP (guess would be on the BDP for that), or something else is going on (and there might not be a difference at all). I presume you were sighted for the comparison? Try it again blinded and have someone else switch inputs for you and see if you reach the same results. Would be more interesting to record the output from both and compare the waveforms in software to see where (or if) they differ from one another. That is if you have a PC and a decent microphone. EDIT: I was stupid there... better (if you have a line-in jack) to just use this and cut out amp/speakers/mic completely from the equation.

As long as you are aware of which one is playing - you'll likely hear differences... and then form preference based on those. However, I've thought that about things that I've proven to myself don't have any once I had no way of knowing which was which anymore.

To the other question - a bitstream is the same so no, cable type shouldn't (and in 99.99% of cases won't) matter at all. The remainder would be an actual bad cable... but that should be cutting out or not even working if that were the case - not subtly changing the sound. If both have the same output options you could always swap and retry... but if the bits are getting there, then everything else is happening in the DAC... and in your brain (which is where most of the differences in digital audio usually exist).

 

[Stefano_Milano]

Either one or both aren't bit-perfect, have some form of DSP (guess would be on the BDP for that), or something else is going on (and there might not be a difference at all). I presume you were sighted for the comparison? Try it again blinded and have someone else switch inputs for you and see if you reach the same results. Would be more interesting to record the output from both and compare the waveforms in software to see where (or if) they differ from one another. That is if you have a PC and a decent microphone. EDIT: I was stupid there... better (if you have a line-in jack) to just use this and cut out amp/speakers/mic completely from the equation.

As long as you are aware of which one is playing - you'll likely hear differences... and then form preference based on those. However, I've thought that about things that I've proven to myself don't have any once I had no way of knowing which was which anymore.

To the other question - a bitstream is the same so no, cable type shouldn't (and in 99.99% of cases won't) matter at all. The remainder would be an actual bad cable... but that should be cutting out or not even working if that were the case - not subtly changing the sound. If both have the same output options you could always swap and retry... but if the bits are getting there, then everything else is happening in the DAC... and in your brain (which is where most of the differences in digital audio usually exist).

Thanks a lot. I will try a blind test.
How can I directly connect the digital output of the cd and the blu ray to the pc? I should do it from the dac but it doesn't have a headphone output.

 

[digicidal]

It should come from the DAC... RCA output via cable to the 3.5mm input on the soundcard (assuming the sound card has one... even if it just has a MIC input it should work fine, but you might have to adjust the levels more). Barring that you could use a USB mic - just make sure it's stable and doesn't move during the whole test - and simply record the output from the speakers... but that's likely to create some differences that might not be there in the signal alone depending on if a fan comes on, truck drives by, etc. during recording.

 

[Stefano_Milano]

It should come from the DAC... RCA output via cable to the 3.5mm input on the soundcard (assuming the sound card has one... even if it just has a MIC input it should work fine, but you might have to adjust the levels more).

Thanks! I will try tonight.

 

[digicidal]

I just looked at the manual for your Panasonic and it does seem to have some digital-domain DSP options which are likely enabled and affecting the sound prior to being passed to your DAC.

In the audio settings (page 24 in the manual) under "Sound Effects" there are Night Surround, and Re-Master options (the latter having 3 settings). There's also a "Dialog Enhancer" setting which pushes vocal frequencies to a center channel. I would hope that isn't possible to engage at all if you're playing a CD... but you never know. Make sure all of those are turned off... then try again and see if you still perceive a difference. If you do... then try the recording option to compare the actual output from the DAC. I think it's likely that only the Marantz is providing the "pure" version of the CD in question and the BDP is coloring the sound (successfully in some ways apparently).

 

[Stefano_Milano]

I just looked at the manual for your Panasonic and it does seem to have some digital-domain DSP options which are likely enabled and affecting the sound prior to being passed to your DAC.

In the audio settings (page 24 in the manual) under "Sound Effects" there are Night Surround, and Re-Master options (the latter having 3 settings). There's also a "Dialog Enhancer" setting which pushes vocal frequencies to a center channel. I would hope that isn't possible to engage at all if you're playing a CD... but you never know. Make sure all of those are turned off... then try again and see if you still perceive a difference. If you do... then try the recording option to compare the actual output from the DAC. I think it's likely that only the Marantz is providing the "pure" version of the CD in question and the BDP is coloring the sound (successfully in some ways apparently).

View attachment 37336

Thanks!!
We hope not to prefer a modified sound ... it means that I am in bad shape ...
In my defense there is to say that I have just had my hearing checked and is equal to that of a thirty year old. And I often go to the Teatro alla Scala to listen to concerts and operas. I have an idea of the sound of a live symphony orchestra. Although the acoustics vary a lot from chair to chair.
But the best thing is to check the waveforms.
Do you have a software to recommend me?

 

[digicidal]

Thanks!!
We hope not to prefer a modified sound ... it means that I am in bad shape ...
In my defense there is to say that I have just had my hearing checked and is equal to that of a thirty year old. And I often go to the Teatro alla Scala to listen to concerts and operas. I have an idea of the sound of a live symphony orchestra. Although the acoustics vary a lot from chair to chair.
But the best thing is to check the waveforms.
Do you have a software to recommend me?

Well, we hope to but we're also quite interesting creatures in that regard. You are already "modifying" the sound simply by playing a recording of it in your room on two speakers rather than an orchestra in a concert hall. Besides, I'm a huge fan of REQ/DSP doing what it can to get my room out of the way and let me hear a (subjectively at least) "closer" analog. So I wouldn't be concerned about liking "modified sound" or not... we all do - it's the extent that we prefer it and the nature of the changes that differ quite a bit.

As far as software, hopefully those with much more experience in the various options can weigh in. One options comes from a user here... check this thread for more info. In general however, any software which can display a waveform in an image for two files (time-aligned) should work fine. A number of people on here have posted shots from Audacity in the past... so you might want to check that out as well - but any that will compare two files would work.

 

[Stefano_Milano]

Well, we hope to but we're also quite interesting creatures in that regard. You are already "modifying" the sound simply by playing a recording of it in your room on two speakers rather than an orchestra in a concert hall. Besides, I'm a huge fan of REQ/DSP doing what it can to get my room out of the way and let me hear a (subjectively at least) "closer" analog. So I wouldn't be concerned about liking "modified sound" or not... we all do - it's the extent that we prefer it and the nature of the changes that differ quite a bit.

As far as software, hopefully those with much more experience in the various options can weigh in. One options comes from a user here... check this thread for more info. In general however, any software which can display a waveform in an image for two files (time-aligned) should work fine. A number of people on here have posted shots from Audacity in the past... so you might want to check that out as well - but any that will compare two files would work.

Last night I did a simple experiment.
I ripped some CDs in Wav format and put them on both PC and smartphone.
I connected PC, smartphone, Panasonic blu ray player and Marantz cd53 player in turn to the DAC Topping D30.
I did a blind test and realized that the sound was pretty much the same for everyone except the Marantz.
I tend to think that it is the Marantz that has something wrong with the exact reading of information.
Later I will do objective tests with the PC.

 

[digicidal]

Very interesting. Despite it's age I wouldn't have expected that - at least as far as using it as a transport. Keep us posted.

 

[solderdude]

I tend to think that it is the Marantz that has something wrong with the exact reading of information.

If that is the case then one would expect ticks or 'static noise alike' sounds. It cannot possibly change tonal balance.
Severe jitter that would not be handled by the D30 would result in poor sound quality, but not more or less bass/mids etc.

 

[Stefano_Milano]

If that is the case then one would expect ticks or 'static noise alike' sounds. It cannot possibly change tonal balance.
Severe jitter that would not be handled by the D30 would result in poor sound quality, but not more or less bass/mids etc.

If that is the case then one would expect ticks or 'static noise alike' sounds. It cannot possibly change tonal balance.
Severe jitter that would not be handled by the D30 would result in poor sound quality, but not more or less bass/mids etc.

The most obvious thing is the lack of bass. The volume should always be the same because it's from the DAC.
The beginning of Wagner's Rhine Gold with the double bass pedal is very clear in this regard.
Maybe the problem is with the coaxial output.
I do not know what to say. I will try to make an objective test soon with the PC.

 

[solderdude]

There is no analog signal going through the coaxial output either.
Nor can there be any audible changes made in any digital cable. It would result in errors, ticks, drop-outs or obvious noise or sound degradation.

To change the FR or amplitude the actual signal would have to be altered before it goes out of the Coax.
It must have been decoded and altered in the audiorealm (digital in this case) and then encoded in SPDIF.
Not saying this is impossible, but unlikely.

A CD with test tones of white noise would be ideal to show such is happening.
Record the analog output of the DAC with the different sources.

 

[Stefano_Milano]

Perhaps I understand why the marantz CD player connected to the topping d30 via coaxial sound worse than the PC and the bluray player connected in optical. I read the review of Amir's Topping better. I read that the coaxial input has some noise that limits the depth to 14 bits. Perhaps this is what I note in the comparison. I must add that for the same audio tracks ripped in wav format from my cds the best source is my motorola g7 smartphone with app fiio. Perhaps because by connecting the dac to the smartphone the pin1 of the usb cable is not in use (no 5v)?

 

[digicidal]

That could be. It's also fairly likely that the G7 has some DSP built in as well. Similarly to the BR player. They may be (are in the Samsung) defeatable, but they are also likely enabled by default. Since most if not all smartphones utilize DSP to enhance voice quality, reduce noise, and enhance perceived quality of sound from a tiny speaker... it's quite likely that it's performed on all audio signals at some point.

I could certainly be wrong about the Marantz, but since it hails from a long past age of audio - I'd still guess that it's signal is the "purest" in terms of having absolutely no signal processing at all (at least with digital outputs). Doesn't it also have an optical output? Maybe try the PC on USB and the Marantz/Samsung players on optical for a comparison.

There's a reason DSP is so widespread... most of the time it does sound subjectively better IMO. So it is quite possible that the "worst" sounding source - is actually the "purest" in the sense of bit-perfection to the source.

 

[Stefano_Milano]

That could be. It's also fairly likely that the G7 has some DSP built in as well. Similarly to the BR player. They may be (are in the Samsung) defeatable, but they are also likely enabled by default. Since most if not all smartphones utilize DSP to enhance voice quality, reduce noise, and enhance perceived quality of sound from a tiny speaker... it's quite likely that it's performed on all audio signals at some point.

I could certainly be wrong about the Marantz, but since it hails from a long past age of audio - I'd still guess that it's signal is the "purest" in terms of having absolutely no signal processing at all (at least with digital outputs). Doesn't it also have an optical output? Maybe try the PC on USB and the Marantz/Samsung players on optical for a comparison.

There's a reason DSP is so widespread... most of the time it does sound subjectively better IMO. So it is quite possible that the "worst" sounding source - is actually the "purest" in the sense of bit-perfection to the source.

Thanks for your kind answer.
I think the Marantz even if it is from the 90s is good. But I think the coaxial connection is not very well managed by the Topping D30, as I understood from Amir's tests. Unfortunately it has no optical output.
The smartphone is connected in native mode and managed with the Fiio app.
I put my soul in peace, as we say in Italy, and I will listen with the blu ray player, pc and smartphone, without asking too many questions.