Difference of $200 cartridge vs a $6,000+ cartridge?

[sofrep811]

Material and labor cost differences of a $200 cartridge vs a $6,000+ cartridge?



On a whim-- I was wondering if cartridge prices are alike cable prices? I know the needles are a huge factor but at $6000 and up cartridge what craft or specialty are you getting for them to charge so much? Is there a ceiling on material costs such as using platinum or gold wiring (Half kidding) and some rare wood for it’s body?



This started because I’m looking for a new cartridge just to change up the sound and see if I prefer one or the other. I do this every year and have tested several cartridges from each manufacturer Audio Technic, Shure, LP Gear, Rega, Ortofon, Denon, and others I don’t recall. My current Rega TT and tonearm work for me and keep me under a certain price range—I think? I keep a very unscientific notebook for each one.

 

[Balle Clorin]

The best MicroLine boron stylus can be bought from Obray for 350-400 usd…the cheapest cartridge can be bought on Aliexpress for <20usd
Anything above 1000 usd does not give you any better spec than a OC9 or PTG from Audio Technica for 600-900 usd.
Would hope the Ortofon to cartridge for 5000 usd are weary well made , but their specs are not as good as a AT for 500usd

 

[Steven Holt]

As far as I can tell, the only difference is $5800. AT makes a fine line of cartridges.

 

[sofrep811]

So everything else is dressing? You reach a point where it can only be so good?

 

[Balle Clorin]

See the measurements library. The peak performance is frequency -0.5+ 2dB, separation -31db, peak distortion < than -25db, Microridge and Boron cantilever. You get the that from AT for less than 1000usd, from others you pay twice as much. Beyond that you pay for luxury.

 

[Steven Holt]

So everything else is dressing? You reach a point where it can only be so good?

Now, my friend, you are learning.

 

[sofrep811]

Now, my friend, you are learning.

I figured as much. Been into vinyl about 15 years before this latest boom. Just getting old and easier to ask. My first time seeing the cost on Koetsu I thought--Why and How? I appreciate the info. Maybe someone will come back and advise "not so fast my friends..."

 

[Anton D]

Material and labor cost differences of a $200 cartridge vs a $6,000+ cartridge?



On a whim-- I was wondering if cartridge prices are alike cable prices? I know the needles are a huge factor but at $6000 and up cartridge what craft or specialty are you getting for them to charge so much? Is there a ceiling on material costs such as using platinum or gold wiring (Half kidding) and some rare wood for it’s body?



This started because I’m looking for a new cartridge just to change up the sound and see if I prefer one or the other. I do this every year and have tested several cartridges from each manufacturer Audio Technic, Shure, LP Gear, Rega, Ortofon, Denon, and others I don’t recall. My current Rega TT and tonearm work for me and keep me under a certain price range—I think? I keep a very unscientific notebook for each one.

Could you tell the cartridges you've had apart from one another?

All sound the same?

I guess the ceiling is at the point you fail to be able to tell them apart.

(Not an endorsement of any price point. It's your personal journey to decide!)

 

[ivayvr]

It depends a lot on a level of indoctrination! I believe that in my "early" days I was very open minded, believing in miracles, depending what the article I read said. I even used to believe statements made by Herbie from the Stereophile...

 

[DVDdoug]

In a blind listening test you might not choose an expensive cartridge.

The main difference is frequency response and I'm not even sure how reliably it can be measured... Test records aren't "perfect". Frequency response of a cartridge is also affected by the capacitance load (cables & the preamp) and as I learned recently from this post, it's affected by temperature!!! The RIAA EQ in the preamp may not be perfect either. The good news is you can tweak frequency response with tone controls/EQ. Back when I was playing records, the frequency balance on the records themselves varied a LOT but I assume modern records are better and more consistent.

I don't play records anymore but IMO - It's not worth spending lots of money on something that can never sound as good as a cheap CD player. I wouldn't go too cheap because cheap analog can sound bad, but you do reach a point of diminishing returns (or no returns) and the sweet-spot is probably below $1000 USD for the entire turntable, cartridge, and preamp.

...Even in the analog days the "snap", "crackle" and "pop" on records annoyed me.

 

[ban25]

JP has published an ABX cartridge test that you can take yourself.

Cartridge ABX

I tried a new cartridge today that struck me as being very similar to one I listened to a few weeks ago, so I did some comparisons, and indeed it did! I should've bought a lottery ticket instead. Here are four ABXs of the two cartridges, each with a different genre of music. I did a quick...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Chrispy]

About $5800 sounds right.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Material and labor cost differences of a $200 cartridge vs a $6,000+ cartridge?



On a whim-- I was wondering if cartridge prices are alike cable prices? I know the needles are a huge factor but at $6000 and up cartridge what craft or specialty are you getting for them to charge so much? Is there a ceiling on material costs such as using platinum or gold wiring (Half kidding) and some rare wood for it’s body?



This started because I’m looking for a new cartridge just to change up the sound and see if I prefer one or the other. I do this every year and have tested several cartridges from each manufacturer Audio Technic, Shure, LP Gear, Rega, Ortofon, Denon, and others I don’t recall. My current Rega TT and tonearm work for me and keep me under a certain price range—I think? I keep a very unscientific notebook for each one.

Forget any correlation between price and performance and focus on practicality. Stylus profile can give you extended life and frequency response- stick with Shibata or Microline variations. Cantilever composition affects frequency response by lowering mass as you get more exotic- boron variations and beryllium for example. A threaded cartridge body is a plus when it comes to mounting and replaceable styli are cost effective and convenient. AT VM95SH or ML checks most of those boxes - $200 max….

 

[dlaloum]

Practically speaking, the key performance indicators are effective tip mass, and needle profile (longer contact patch = better).

In practice that means looking for well designed exotic cantilevers, and linear contact needle types.

The other major limitation on cartridge/needle performance is the match with the arm system... cantilever suspension compliance needs to be matched to arm effective mass - and damping in the arm system (oil, magnetic, or whatever), in combination with the level of damping in the cantilever suspension can then affect the match and the sound quality. In a perfect world, you want minimum damping in the cantilever suspension... and have the arm system damped instead - but that tends to result in very high compliance cartridges, and very low mass damped arms - sadly we have moved away from that solution over the last 3 decades....

There are some outlier designs that achieve objectives differently... eg: Dynavector Karat cartridges, where the low tip mass is achieved by shortening the cantilever drastically...

The top Stanton cartridges had an aluminium cantilever made using a proprietary hardening method, which allowed for thinner cantilever walls, and the lowest effective mass I have seen on an aluminium cantilever... (better than many exotic rod cantilevers... as a principle, tubes are lighter than rods...)

With MM designs, there are some marginal benefits that are obtained by laminating the generator core, which reduces magnetic eddy flux effects... the top Shures and AT's always touted their laminated cores...

The other thing to watch for, especially with high inductance cartridges (MM) - is they are very sensitive to loading, both resistive and capacitive.... and you can massively change their frequency response by adjusting the loading.
20 Years ago, the only way to get really neutral frequency response, was to tweak the loading with lots of measurements and adjustments - a painful and slow process....
Today, we can just pick a loading that gives us decent extended frequency response without worrying too much about peaks and troughs caused by the loading - and then do the final adjustment using digital EQ.

This is the process that Technics has effectively automated with their test record and built in digital EQ on the flagship integrated amp.... I still await the arrival on the market of other such Digital Phono Amps with built in EQ! (yes you can do it yourself, with various tools, and hardware, but it is still needlessly fiddly, where technics has shown it can be simple!)

In any case - you can go out and purchase a Shure V15V body, and then a Jico SAS stylus for it, and you instantly have a high end performance combination for under $500 (often you can find the body for chump change, so the real cost is just the stylus)

There are other similar examples.

But yes... it gets difficult to justify cartridges over US$1000... there are occasional exceptions (The Dynavector Karat is one, and possibly the Soundsmith "Voice" )

 

[wwenze]

So everything else is dressing? You reach a point where it can only be so good?

Even worse, oftentimes spending more money can get you less performance, if you buy the wrong brands.

 

[Bob from Florida]

This is the process that Technics has effectively automated with their test record and built in digital EQ on the flagship integrated amp.... I still await the arrival on the market of other such Digital Phono Amps with built in EQ! (yes you can do it yourself, with various tools, and hardware, but it is still needlessly fiddly, where technics has shown it can be simple!)

Already here for $500 - Parks Waxwing.

 

[Palladium]

So everything else is dressing? You reach a point where it can only be so good?

Welcome to consumerism.

Its particularly egregious in products where the fundamental technologies has stagnated for a long time like audio.

 

[eddantes]

I guess the ceiling is at the point you fail to be able to tell them apart.

Does any difference in measurment matter if one can't perceive it? The answer is NO.

So find your own limits (a proper double blind test); then add a little for "mental health" - the difference between "knowing" a thing is better and being able to "perceive" that it is better - and Bob's your uncle! You are at your personal nirvana!

 

[rank]

The vinyl record is very limited in bandwidth, especially in the bass and wears out quickly, attenuating the high frequencies which then disappear irremediably after a few passages. The struggle between diamond and plastic is unequal. Concerning the cartridges, all are colored and even the low end reads any disc perfectly with ease, restoring the entire musical message (at least what remains after pressing, which is destructive for all details).
I never spent more than $250 for a Denon 103, a Sumiko Blue Point Special (old model), several Ortofons (I keep the X3, a high-level MC), an AKG and a few Shure (70 & 75, excellent even without considering price) and a Sony XL 15. Delivered with an old turntable of the brand (PS T 15) purchased for $15. My favorite arm is their PS LX 300 H).
I also had a Rega Planar 2 with a Jelco arm with detachable shell but the motor failed and I sold it. The belt antiskating (?) no longer worked either.

 

[sofrep811]

Could you tell the cartridges you've had apart from one another?

All sound the same?

I guess the ceiling is at the point you fail to be able to tell them apart.

(Not an endorsement of any price point. It's your personal journey to decide!)

There are slight differences. Even with the Rega carts that are actually AT carts dressed in Rega clothes. Just different but not better.