Difference in DAC sound desirable?

[sjeesjie]

There's a lot of discussion going on about whether or not DACs all sound the same if they were optimally implemented. Still there are lots of people who think otherwise. I was just wondering how that could be?

I don't have a lot of reference material myself but I can hardly hear the difference between my iPhone, Macbook 2013 or Topping DX3Pro. However, my Marantz ND8006 really does sound different. How can that be? Does it have to do with the amplification part of a DAC? (As I understand there's a little bit of amplification going on in there too) The latest trend seems to be the changeable OP amps in DACs. That is of course to change the sound signature, but is that desirable at all? You'd never know what the "pure" sound of the DAC would be!

 

[raistlin65]

There's a lot of discussion going on about whether or not DACs all sound the same if they were optimally implemented. Still there are lots of people who think otherwise. I was just wondering how that could be?

Easy. Lots of people do sighted comparisons of DACs and amps that are not volume leveled. They are unreliable. Read this to learn more: http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html

Best to trust what the measurements tell you here at ASR over your ears.

I don't have a lot of reference material myself but I can hardly hear the difference between my iPhone, Macbook 2013 or Topping DX3Pro. However, my Marantz ND8006 really does sound different. How can that be? Does it have to do with the amplification part of a DAC? (As I understand there's a little bit of amplification going on in there too)

It could be the amp and/or the DAC.

The latest trend seems to be the changeable OP amps in DACs. That is of course to change the sound signature, but is that desirable at all? You'd never know what the "pure" sound of the DAC would be!

That's actually an old trend. People were doing that at least fifteen years ago. The new trend is DACs that measure very freaking accurate for not much money and you should not mess with changing out the op amps.

 

[solderdude]

Not all DACs sound the same.
Well designed DACs adhering to the sampling theorem will all measure differently.
Well designed DACs adhering to the sampling theorem will not sound the same when there are level differences present. Not in a blind test and not in sighted test.
Well designed DACs adhering to the sampling theorem when compared level matched can NOT be told apart in blind test.
Well designed DACs adhering to the sampling theorem when compared level matched CAN be told apart in sighted tests.
Well designed DACs NOT adhering to the sampling theorem when compared level matched might well be told apart compared to one that DO adhere to the sampling theorem in blind test and can be told apart in a sighted test.

To determine if the DAC is well designed and how well it adheres to the sampling test you need to test it properly on suited test equipment.

Some people like a DAC that does not 'add' or 'change' anything compared to the digitally described waveform that is properly reconstructed and other people search for devices that have an output waveform that deviates from he digitally described waveform by adding or removing things or by willfully playing with filters that do not adhere to the sampling theorem in order to get a 'sound'.

One is perfectly free to choose whatever one wants.
At ASR DACs are measured to see how the actually perform.

 

[ZenTraveler]

It can be AMP/DAC that purposely built to sound different.
It can be claimed to sound differently as it was measured subjectively by human ears.

 

[Killingbeans]

However, my Marantz ND8006 really does sound different. How can that be?

The line level output? I don't know the Marantz, but if the frequency response is ruler flat and its output impedance doesn't interact strangly with the subsequent gear, it could be (sorry, if I sound like a broken record) expectation bias. No way of knowing without further investigation.

Does it have to do with the amplification part of a DAC? (As I understand there's a little bit of amplification going on in there too)

There can be a lot of things. I/V conversion, active filtering and buffer amps to name a few. But unless the designer was drunk, they won't add nonlinearities anywhere near being audible

The latest trend seems to be the changeable OP amps in DACs.

It's for the people who love tinkering.

In order to get best performance from an op-amp you pick the external components based on its specific characteristics and the specific implementation you have chosen. If a designer want's to make op-amp rolling possible, he/she will have to chose the external components based on high tolerance for a large number of different op-amps, instead of optimisation for a single one. In other words; solid engineering gets sacrificed for a gimmick.

That is of course to change the sound signature, but is that desirable at all?

In most cases it makes no difference. And in the few where it does, it's because the poor op-amp is being raped.

 

[LTig]

There's a lot of discussion going on about whether or not DACs all sound the same if they were optimally implemented. Still there are lots of people who think otherwise. I was just wondering how that could be?

I don't have a lot of reference material myself but I can hardly hear the difference between my iPhone, Macbook 2013 or Topping DX3Pro. However, my Marantz ND8006 really does sound different. How can that be? Does it have to do with the amplification part of a DAC? (As I understand there's a little bit of amplification going on in there too) The latest trend seems to be the changeable OP amps in DACs. That is of course to change the sound signature, but is that desirable at all? You'd never know what the "pure" sound of the DAC would be!

Does the Marantz has HDAM circuits which they claim to produce a "warm" and "musical" (what ever that's supposed to be) sound? In this case it could be possible that the Marantz sounds different than a neutral DAC. Otherwise refer to @solderdude's post.

 

[the chicks]

Great topic!

Some DACs have customisable sound : you can easily change filters (by changing filtering circuits), add distortion, dial in varying amounts of crossfeed (to blend Left and Right channels). I would love to be able to afford some of the good quality DACs that can do these things - maybe one day such DACs will be much cheaper.

 

[sjeesjie]

Great topic!

Some DACs have customisable sound : you can easily change filters (by changing filtering circuits), add distortion, dial in varying amounts of crossfeed (to blend Left and Right channels). I would love to be able to afford some of the good quality DACs that can do these things - maybe one day such DACs will be much cheaper.

Yes this is indeed one of the charms of the RME-ADI DAC , the fact that it’s also an equaliser. Are there other DACs that can also do this?