Difference between MP3 and FLAC and crazy EQ changes

[techsamurai]

I have been using Spotify for a very long time and I was forbidden from switching to higher res options by my family.

As everyone knows, Spotify's highest resolution was Ogg Vorbis 320kbps and they say the differences are inaudible. Right before Christmas, I was listening to music and I noticed that I was more engaged and unexpectedly so. After investigating my system, I discovered Spotify had offered FLAC all of a sudden. I checked online and it was true, not a system glitch.

Since FLAC came out, I'm listening to a lot more music and particularly my favorites and also new music.

The craziest part is that I've had to make some EQ changes that I cannot understand.

The 1st set of changes was:
Treble -3db (it was +3db)
Sub +5db

These came within a month of processing the music, I guess.

The sub is crossed over at 40hz and LR play full range.

The 2nd set is:
+2db Bass
Sub -1db (-4db overall)
+1db Treble

These came one month later.

I also play louder (+5-10db) and music is not emotional or engaging (like my old system which turned you into a musician with every song) but it is so clear, I can hear the hair on the performers move - kidding but it is so clear, it's not even funny.

I don't understand what is happening because all that changed was a resolution change. The resulting EQ changes I made are monumental. Am I wrong to make them? Going back, sounds dull, flat, and one-dimensional. Why didn't I feel compelled to make the same EQ changes when listening to mp3 and why am I listening louder and like music more?

Is it the Denon's 4800h? Does it have a different FLAC circuit vs MP3?

Has anyone run into this with source quality changes?

 

[delta76]

It is in your brain. You get accustomed with louder music + EQ

 

[techsamurai]

It is in your brain. You get accustomed with louder music + EQ

It is the brain, I agree. The ears are simply the transport but the transport is important at least in providing initial samples to the brain to operate on. Before FLAC, it clearly didn't have the samples to work with so it had accepted that it could not process the sound further and it was upset, everyone knows that here by now.

But why would I not play the mp3 music louder for 2 years? Clearly my brain said don't, this is the level and maybe turn the whole thing off while you're at it, if you wouldn't mind And, sadly, that's what happened.

And also why am I listening to new music when I could barely listen to any music for 2 years with mp3? I don't listen to new music, do I? It's almost as if my brain is asking for more samples and higher detail to process more changes and run more simulations when it's not listening.

And I'm sure it's about to come up with a curve for Audyssey and it will ask for midrange changes. I know it because it's clearly trying to control the midrange by finetuning bass and treble and it just told me to explain to you what it's trying to do . It's actually looking for warmth in voices like color in skin tones. The sound is near perfect but it's missing the correct tone-mapping. And that's not me saying that by the way -the audio analysis division within my brain is actually writing this and even telling me that my color on my tv doesn't match the sound the way it should. I was actually not aware of that until now. I had no idea it processes sound and vision together and prefers them to match. How Interesting and it actually makes sense, if you sit and think about it cause my TV and sound do go together and my brain has been constantly processing both for 20 years.

 

[masterhw]

It’s possible this mode on the Denon was enabled… but if memory serves I don’t think it ran on Vorbis sources.

I’m not really sure why there’s a difference either, but I know it’s certainly easier to handwave it as subjective psychoacoustics than to begin to question some of the typically settled science of audio compression.
If the lossless source brings you more satisfaction, and it seems to, then keep with it - I’ve done the same.

 

[techsamurai]

It’s possible this mode on the Denon was enabled… but if memory serves I don’t think it ran on Vorbis sources.
View attachment 510171
I’m not really sure why there’s a difference either, but I know it’s certainly easier to handwave it as subjective psychoacoustics than to begin to question some of the typically settled science of audio compression.
If the lossless source brings you more satisfaction, and it seems to, then keep with it - I’ve done the same.

Yeah, I think that's the equivalent of Marantz's M-DAX (I had Cinema 30 level old Marantz AVRs before). I'll check that as it could well be part of the issue. I definitely prefer the FLAC.

What I don't get are the EQ changes that are coming about and they are almost directive level changes, not trial and error as you'd expect. I'm not fiddling with EQ. I'm making precise changes akin to Audyssey and DIRAC applying modifications and my musical and listening behavior is also changing while doing that which is actually much more bizarre because I just listen to the same songs always. There was a set of changes in month 1, a set of changes in month 2, and I suspect more changes in a month

 

[antcollinet]

It is the brain, I agree. The ears are simply the transport but the transport is important at least in providing initial samples to the brain to operate on. Before FLAC, it clearly didn't have the samples to work with so it had accepted that it could not process the sound further and it was upset, everyone knows that here by now.

But why would I not play the mp3 music louder for 2 years? Clearly my brain said don't, this is the level and maybe turn the whole thing off while you're at it, if you wouldn't mind And, sadly, that's what happened.

And also why am I listening to new music when I could barely listen to any music for 2 years with mp3? I don't listen to new music, do I? It's almost as if my brain is asking for more samples and higher detail to process more changes and run more simulations when it's not listening.

And I'm sure it's about to come up with a curve for Audyssey and it will ask for midrange changes. I know it because it's clearly trying to control the midrange by finetuning bass and treble and it just told me to explain to you what it's trying to do . It's actually looking for warmth in voices like color in skin tones. The sound is near perfect but it's missing the correct tone-mapping. And that's not me saying that by the way -the audio analysis division within my brain is actually writing this and even telling me that my color on my tv doesn't match the sound the way it should. I was actually not aware of that until now. I had no idea it processes sound and vision together and prefers them to match. How Interesting and it actually makes sense, if you sit and think about it cause my TV and sound do go together and my brain has been constantly processing both for 20 years.

If you want to understand, the only way will be to get the same track and same mastering encoded in Ogg Vorbis and FLAC and compare level matched and blind.

I'd be willing to bet you cant hear a difference, and certainly not one resulting in need for massive eq changes.


Until then I'm going to go with a co-incidental time alignment between Spotify offering flac - and you deciding you needed to EQ your system - which could have been for any number of reasons.

 

[tccalvin]

My usual recommended test:

Is your audio system really ready for lossless?

Do an ABX test in your browser, and see if you can tell the difference between lossless and Spotify-compression quality audio

abx.digitalfeed.net

I absolutely cannot tell the difference between FLAC and Spotify "free".

If songs had more super-high frequency content near 20kHz and if my ears were a bit younger (last time I checked I topped out at 18kHz), then maybe...

 

[techsamurai]

If you want to understand, the only way will be to get the same track and same mastering encoded in Ogg Vorbis and FLAC and compare level matched and blind.

I'd be willing to bet you cant hear a difference, and certainly not one resulting in need for massive eq changes.


Until then I'm going to go with a co-incidental time alignment between Spotify offering flac - and you deciding you needed to EQ your system - which could have been for any number of reasons.

I'm in agreement about hearing changes - they are impossible to tell apart with hearing but processing especially long-term and dealing with your own equipment, completely different story. Now, you're talking about the greatest chip on the planet processing in the background a song for a month or two with a guitar it's played for 20,000 hours. It's going to detect changes.

So while a blind-fold test may reveal nothing at the time but the behavior afterwards may or suddenly the brain may look back a month later and say Sample 1 was better. It's like blitz chess versus correspondence chess.

 

[IsaacOscar]

I have been using Spotify for a very long time and I was forbidden from switching to higher res options by my family.

Your family disapproves of high-res music?
(Well it will waste internet bandwidth, making it slower for everyone...)

As everyone knows, Spotify's highest resolution was Ogg Vorbis 320kbps and they say the differences are inaudible. Right before Christmas, I was listening to music and I noticed that I was more engaged and unexpectedly so. After investigating my system, I discovered Spotify had offered FLAC all of a sudden. I checked online and it was true, not a system glitch.

Hmm, they didn't automatically enable it for me, I had to go to the settings and switch it on, and then redownload all my music.

I don't understand what is happening because all that changed was a resolution change.

Your brain has changed. Do a blind test (just get one of your high-res-hating family members to change the quality settings randomly). I'm pretty sure you won't be able to tell the difference (at least between FLAC and the highest vorbis option).
I certainly can't tell the difference even sighted, but as I have plenty of internet and storage space, I may as well get the higher quality (it certainly shouldn't be worse sounding).

The resulting EQ changes I made are monumental.
Am I wrong to make them? Going back, sounds dull, flat, and one-dimensional.

EQ is great, it can basically simulate using different headphones/speakers. So it's no more "wrong" than buying headphones/speakers different to what the musicians use. Of course don't do too much EQ too much or you'll completely change the sound of the music into something else.

Why didn't I feel compelled to make the same EQ changes when listening to mp3 and why am I listening louder and like music more?

Your asking why you changed your tastes and decided to try something new? That happens to humans...

Is it the Denon's 4800h? Does it have a different FLAC circuit vs MP3?

If it does, than it's doing something wrong: the MP3 and FLAC files should both be unambiguously decompressed to (different) raw PCM.

Has anyone run into this with source quality changes?

Nope. Which is why I haven't bothered to switch to a higher-res service (Tidal does up to 192kHz!).

 

[delta76]

It is the brain, I agree. The ears are simply the transport but the transport is important at least in providing initial samples to the brain to operate on. Before FLAC, it clearly didn't have the samples to work with so it had accepted that it could not process the sound further and it was upset, everyone knows that here by now.

But why would I not play the mp3 music louder for 2 years? Clearly my brain said don't, this is the level and maybe turn the whole thing off while you're at it, if you wouldn't mind And, sadly, that's what happened.

And also why am I listening to new music when I could barely listen to any music for 2 years with mp3? I don't listen to new music, do I? It's almost as if my brain is asking for more samples and higher detail to process more changes and run more simulations when it's not listening.

And I'm sure it's about to come up with a curve for Audyssey and it will ask for midrange changes. I know it because it's clearly trying to control the midrange by finetuning bass and treble and it just told me to explain to you what it's trying to do . It's actually looking for warmth in voices like color in skin tones. The sound is near perfect but it's missing the correct tone-mapping. And that's not me saying that by the way -the audio analysis division within my brain is actually writing this and even telling me that my color on my tv doesn't match the sound the way it should. I was actually not aware of that until now. I had no idea it processes sound and vision together and prefers them to match. How Interesting and it actually makes sense, if you sit and think about it cause my TV and sound do go together and my brain has been constantly processing both for 20 years.

unless you compare side-by-side with a proper setup blind test, your audio memory is very short term and very imprecise to indicate anything. There are a few things that can be at play
- You are getting older (we all are, sorry) and your hearing is not as good as 2y before
- you, step by step, get used to louder music + EQ. We perceive louder = better and if you go back to previous loudness, it may sound dull, less detail etc.

In proper double blind tests researchers show that people can't reliably tell 320kbps mp3 and FLAC apart, let alone which is better. So your solution can be very simple (bear the aging hearing) - a simple reset means you stop listening to your speakers for a few days - a week. Listen them on your headphones. Then come back. Voila!

 

[techsamurai]

Your family disapproves of high-res music?
(Well it will waste internet bandwidth, making it slower for everyone...)

Lol, they didn't want to lose their playlists or have to set up new accounts.

Hmm, they didn't automatically enable it for me, I had to go to the settings and switch it on, and then redownload all my music.

Yeah, it was enabled on my Home Theater Spotify Connect, not on anything else. It was strange. I had even forgotten what FLAC was

Your brain has changed. Do a blind test (just get one of your high-res-hating family members to change the quality settings randomly). I'm pretty sure you won't be able to tell the difference (at least between FLAC and the highest vorbis option).
I certainly can't tell the difference even sighted, but as I have plenty of internet and storage space, I may as well get the higher quality (it certainly shouldn't be worse sounding).

I agree - it sounds the same but clearly it did NOT and my brain literally waved a flag that the world is now upside down.

EQ is great, it can basically simulate using different headphones/speakers. So it's no more "wrong" than buying headphones/speakers different to what the musicians use. Of course don't do too much EQ too much or you'll completely change the sound of the music into something else.

I agree and these are seismic EQ changes for just FLAC vs MP3. Overall, -2db to treble and +2db to bass and +4 to sub.

Your asking why you changed your tastes and decided to try something new? That happens to humans...

Hasn't happened in 10-15 years. I have a collection of thousands of songs but that's all I listen unless my kids make me play something new. I don't change - I want my old AVR back

If it does, than it's doing something wrong: the MP3 and FLAC files should both be unambiguously decompressed to (different) raw PCM.

It could be the case.

 

[antcollinet]

I'm in agreement about hearing changes - they are impossible to tell apart with hearing but processing especially long-term and dealing with your own equipment, completely different story. Now, you're talking about the greatest chip on the planet processing in the background a song for a month or two with a guitar it's played for 20,000 hours. It's going to detect changes.

So while a blind-fold test may reveal nothing at the time but the behavior afterwards may or suddenly the brain may look back a month later and say Sample 1 was better. It's like blitz chess versus correspondence chess.

Sounds a bit like hand wavey reverse justification with nothing to back it up to me.

If you cant hear a difference, you can't hear it. The brain is not going to suddenly invent a bunch of EQ you need to do to "adapt" the sound for an inaudible difference.

Much more likely you've had a cold - or got a bunch of earwax in your ear, or your diet has changed or you've started smoking dope, or stopped drinking, or someone has turned the heating down, or didn't listen for a few days, or went to a concert, or you'd picked up unconsciously about the Spotify change somewhere etc etc. This list could pretty much go on for all eternity. Brains are weird. Or, in other words, perceptive bias.

 

[techsamurai]

Sounds a bit like hand wavey reverse justification with nothing to back it up to me.

If you cant hear a difference, you can't hear it. The brain is not going to suddenly invent a bunch of EQ you need to do to "adapt" the sound for an inaudible difference.

Much more likely you've had a cold - or got a bunch of earwax in your ear, or your diet has changed or you've started smoking dope, or stopped drinking, or someone has turned the heating down, or didn't listen for a few days, or went to a concert, or you'd picked up unconsciously about the Spotify change somewhere etc etc. This list could pretty much go on for all eternity. Brains are weird. Or, in other words, perceptive bias.

That's like saying that the discovery of the amp or the discovery of anything was perceptive bias. I can tell if I prefer a color very clearly when they are clearly visible. I can do the same with sound.

Let's bring TVs into the conversation as they offer massively higher BT2020 and DCI-P3 coverage and the eye in its 15-20 degree circular focal area is a tool of incredible precision.

If a TV has 80% BT2020 and another one touts 100% BT2020 and they play the same source, you'd expect the eye to see different colors would you not? If I don't see them, I don't claim I do nor does my brain scream "this TV has more color".

But it did scream with FLAC and not only did it scream but it's going crazy with sound changes following that for 3 months. And I personally don't get it.

In fact, if FLAC sounded identical like TV colors (all other things being equal), I'd be agreeing with you.

 

[mhardy6647]

If you want to understand, the only way will be to get the same track and same mastering encoded in Ogg Vorbis and FLAC and compare level matched and blind.

"and the same mastering" indeed -- never guaranteed and no mean feat.
Thus the so many variables world we find ourselves existing in.
I guess we could have worse problems, though...

 

[IsaacOscar]

"and the same mastering" indeed -- never guaranteed and no mean feat.
Thus the so many variables world we find ourselves existing in.
I guess we could have worse problems, though...

On Spotify, I'd assume they give you the same master as you adjust the quality settings. And if you get the files elsewhere, you can always just convert them yourself to ensure they're the same.

 

[techsamurai]

It’s possible this mode on the Denon was enabled… but if memory serves I don’t think it ran on Vorbis sources.
View attachment 510171
I’m not really sure why there’s a difference either, but I know it’s certainly easier to handwave it as subjective psychoacoustics than to begin to question some of the typically settled science of audio compression.
If the lossless source brings you more satisfaction, and it seems to, then keep with it - I’ve done the same.

Okay, restorer was on low and now we have 320kpbs with Off, 320kpbs with Low, Lossless with off, and Lossless with Low.

And Restorer may have more of an impact than 320Kbps vs Lossless because I can hear instruments more clearly with Low than Off.

In case people want to test - Diana Krall S'Wonderful 0:28-0:40 upright bass and some sort of light drum or shaker - Off is less audible. I also feel there's an overall volume difference. The way she sings the word see in " what I love to see" is different.

If it needs to be Off, I may need to modify the entire soundstage. I can't even think of how I would bring back the instruments with less coloration but still make them prominent enough.

Comparing four things is exceptionally tough.

Tough one - I have to think about this one and try to understand the Restorer's impact. This may require a comparison of other upscaling technologies and native vs upscaled content.

 

[antcollinet]

I can do the same with sound.

And yet you agreed you would not be able to hear the difference between FLAC and OGG VORBIS - or at least that is what I think you said.

 

[techsamurai]

And yet you agreed you would not be able to hear the difference between FLAC and OGG VORBIS - or at least that is what I think you said.

I have Restorer on Low setting which upscales compressed signals - I have a feeling the upscaling dome was different for 320 and FLAC, it is after all a much larger sound file.

So I'm not sure if it's 320kbps and Lossless or the way the Restorer impacted the switch to Lossless - there are 2 variables at play here.

And now the tougher one is how to handle the Restorer. I can't just turn it off, it improves some things but collapses others particularly bass. My ears are tired - not figuratively, quite literally

 

[antcollinet]

I have Restorer on Low setting which upscales compressed signals - I have a feeling the upscaling dome was different for 320 and FLAC, it is after all a much larger sound file.

So I'm not sure if it's 320kbps and Lossless or the way the Restorer impacted the switch to Lossless - there are 2 variables at play here.

And now the tougher one is how to handle the Restorer. I can't just turn it off, it improves some things but collapses others particularly bass. My ears are tired - not figuratively, quite literally

I'd still be interested to see if you could hear a difference in a level matched blind test even with restorer operational.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

My usual recommended test:

Is your audio system really ready for lossless?

Do an ABX test in your browser, and see if you can tell the difference between lossless and Spotify-compression quality audio

abx.digitalfeed.net

I absolutely cannot tell the difference between FLAC and Spotify "free".

If songs had more super-high frequency content near 20kHz and if my ears were a bit younger (last time I checked I topped out at 18kHz), then maybe...

just do this test and share the results because this is audio science review and the stuff you are doing is not scientific at all