Did manufacturers give up on AVRs?

[Oddball]

I’m not sure where this idea that Manufacturers have abandoned AVR’s comes from. There are several offerings for every budget. The tech and market has matured. It may seem dead compared to Stereo. The main differentiator between the two is the religious aspect which doesn’t seem to exist in the multi channel world. There has been a renaissance in high end audio but I’d estimate that 90% of new products in that genre offer nothing in terms of real improvement. It will pass.

Multichannel, especially the latest formats, is much harder to install and get right than stereo. Therefore i predict that the market will remain small.

There is somewhat of a ”religious” following of Storm and Trinnov. And there are derivatives of their products, or at least Storm in the AVR space. But except the price these are great products and offer instantaneous customer support.

New formats like Atmos are obviously much harder to install as more channels. Get it right not so much compared to simpler 5.1. Subs will be most difficult and rest usually just falls in place with the right room correction or some skill.

 

[JRR]

Mch has Storm and Trinnov

Stereo has enough religiosity to fill an entire hotel or convention center with largely bullshit several times per year.

 

[darth]

There is somewhat of a ”religious” following of Storm and Trinnov. And there are derivatives of their products, or at least Storm in the AVR space. But except the price these are great products and offer instantaneous customer support.

Do you think this following is mostly the house builders/Home theater installers who just push these devices on consumers who just outsource and let their installer deal with it? I heard that these brands rely on huge margins and only reason they are priced what they are is because of large kickbacks for installers.

 

[Sal1950]

I struggled but managed to get to a 2.1 but I empathize with this statement. Anything more is very likely out of the question.

Come on, stand up for yourself.
I always told the wife, you can decorate every room in the house any way you choose but the living room is mine.
I worked too hard for 60+ years to be bossed around at home too.

Multichannel, especially the latest formats, is much harder to install and get right than stereo. Therefore i predict that the market will remain small.

Only slightly smaller the quality 2ch rigs.
They went out in the 90s, don't remember the last time I visited a non-audiophile with a nice receiver and 2 speakers like most everyone had in the 70s.
Now they're mostly all using sound bars.

But today I do find more with some type of home theater
And more than worth the cost and effort to install and tune.
Once you have it, you won't go back.

 

[xanalog]

Topic Title: "Did manufacturers give up on AVRs?"​

I don't know about the manufacturers but some consumers (including self and maybe you?) have had enough with the costly rinse/flush/repeat (RFR) cycles with AVRs.
Attempts to lessen RFR cycles, I even tried AVP/Proc (separates) route; the software nits, settings and upgrades became some form of crappy foreplay... just to listen to music.
Life seems to be so much simpler with paring back down 2 channels with as minimal software bs as possible makes music cheaper to consume.
As it should be. imo!

There is also the side-topic regarding the (chinese) competition being stiff... and possibly to the devastating-effects for the AVR manufacturers.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't know about the manufacturers but some consumers (including self and maybe you?) have had enough with the costly rinse/flush/repeat (RFR) cycles with AVRs.
Attempts to lessen RFR cycles, I even tried AVP/Proc (separates) route; the software nits, settings and upgrades became some form of crappy foreplay... just to listen to music.

I don't see the big problem there, if you wanted to stay near the TOTL with most any product you trade up.
Thankfully there have been big advances in AVRs over the last 20 years both in multich codecs (quad, 5.1, Atmos) and included digital room correction systems that have broath big musical gains. I've chosen to upgrade my multich audio system a few times over the last 20 years but am still driving the same 2006 Ram pickup I bought new back then.
YMMV

 

[xanalog]

Thankfully there have been big advances in AVRs over the last 20 years

Exactly @Sal1950 ,
That, there, is the my problem; in the beginning of those 20 years, I hesitated replacing and then marrying my costly "As" with the -even more costly- "As, plus the "Vs".
HDMIv1.3 gave way to HDMI1.4 and 'we (the consumer) had to upgrade... idem HDMIv14a to b, and then idem again, to HDMI2.0...
And I had to move lock step w/the times, but my older (and costly) hardware were not DOA yet.
You see where I was going with my previous post? I have not even gotten into that gerbil-wheel called software updates/upgrades that are ALWAYS necessary....

 

[CtheArgie]

@Sal1950 , so what would you recommend now? Good enough, no kilo bucks.

 

[High End Refugee]

Exactly @Sal1950 ,
That, there, is the my problem; in the beginning of those 20 years, I hesitated replacing and then marrying my costly "As" with the -even more costly- "As, plus the "Vs".
HDMIv1.3 gave way to HDMI1.4 and 'we (the consumer) had to upgrade... idem HDMIv14a to b, and then idem again, to HDMI2.0...
And I had to move lock step w/the times, but my older (and costly) hardware were not DOA yet.
You see where I was going with my previous post? I have not even gotten into that gerbil-wheel called software updates/upgrades that are ALWAYS necessary....

I havent had to upgrade anything because of HDMI versions.

 

[xanalog]

I havent had to upgrade anything because of HDMI versions.

OIC

 

[jhaider]

Which kind of makes the fact, that there is no really “American” AVP/AVR even more interesting.
…

American - I can think only of Emotiva [JBL is just rebadged Arcam/Trinnov, owned by Koreans]. McIntosh I think is also OEM rebadged thing in expensive case

Monoprice (ATI OEM) HTP-1.

 

[Sal1950]

@Sal1950 , so what would you recommend now? Good enough, no kilo bucks.

You didn't set an exact budget but since you said "no kilo bucks" I'll stay around a grand MSRP
I'll give you my criteria and why. I'd try for the best DAC performance possible at the price, amps can always be upgraded anytime.
The next is DRC, and the Denon - Marantz line offers the excellent and upgradeable Multi EQ
For today I'd make a few hundred stretch to the Denon X3800H Upgradable Audyssey XT32 + Dirac Upgradeable.
I don't think you could buy better sound for less then 3x the money.
BTW, my last AVR purchase is a Denon X4700H so I put my money where my mouth is.

 

[GXAlan]

Monoprice (ATI OEM) HTP-1.

Yes. Manufactured in the U.S. and even the software engineering is U.S. based.

I had the HTP-1 and upgraded to the Trinnov Altitude 32. While the Altitude 32 is better for my room (speakers in poor locations where 3D remapping helps; 4 subwoofers in good locations in a too small room where Waveforming works), there’s no question that at 16 channels, the HTP-1 really gives up nothing compared to a flagship Trinnov. The Trinnov is 10-15% better *and* the built in bass EQ means that the HTP-1 could sound even better than the Trinnov because the source data is enhanced. The HTP-1 even has adjustable loudness and HDMI CEc which are absent from Trinnov.

All of the idiosyncrasies described for the HTP-1 were early firmware or settings. The HTP-1 is as reliable as Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Sony, etc.

The HTP-1 hardware support is less predictable (even though the hardware is very reliable). It’s also frustrating that Monoprice hasn’t sold the product line to someone else who can continue to provide software development or even modular upgrades if they are not going to invest the money and time themselves.

In contrast, Trinnov really does give you personalized attention and customer service. Average soundbar is $500. Altitude 32 at 16ch is $32K. Average car in the U.S. is $48k. So the Trinnov would be like buying a 3M car. So Trinnov treats you like that. They respond to emails at odd hours, can remotely fix certain things, etc.

I have tried to tell Amir that he can sell a lot of Ascilabs speakers in a HT environment and instead of trying to build a AVP from scratch, maybe there’s an easy way to spend some software development dollars in the current AI-assisted-software engineering world to take the HTP-1 to the next step and sell it. McIntosh had no problem selling modified versions of other AVPs, so Amir’s newco could modify the HTP-1… after all, he knows more about managing software developers than even audio!

 

[polmuaddib]

I’m not sure where this idea that Manufacturers have abandoned AVR’s comes from. There are several offerings for every budget.

NAD had a great idea to make modular AVRs where you would change HDMI boards as they evolve, but they still don't offer HDMI 2.1 while other manufacturers do.
IOTAVX had a great idea with barebone AVP, their AVX17, but there is no HDMI 2.1 and I am not sure if you can even buy that product.
Tonwinner, the same situation.
Anthem and Arcam are expensive for what they bring to the table.
Onkyo never recovered their reputation from frail HDMI boards 15 years ago, and I am not sure what their market share is. Integra looks promising, but their price is not going down and I am unsure how they are competitive.
Yamaha is falling behind because nobody cares about their YPAO room correction. They didn't jump the Dirac train. Sony is similar.
JBL offers 5 channel avrs, then 7 and 9 and then 16 channels. No 11 or 13 options.
Trinnov/Storm is a different league and doesn't belong to home audio.

It seems that most of the market belongs to Denon/Marantz as their lineup is the most competitive and almost complete.

Up until a decade ago the manufacturers were racing and fighting to push the newest tech.

This is just my view. I could be wrong.

 

[dlaloum]

NAD had a great idea to make modular AVRs where you would change HDMI boards as they evolve, but they still don't offer HDMI 2.1 while other manufacturers do.
IOTAVX had a great idea with barebone AVP, their AVX17, but there is no HDMI 2.1 and I am not sure if you can even buy that product.
Tonwinner, the same situation.
Anthem and Arcam are expensive for what they bring to the table.
Onkyo never recovered their reputation from frail HDMI boards 15 years ago, and I am not sure what their market share is. Integra looks promising, but their price is not going down and I am unsure how they are competitive.
Yamaha is falling behind because nobody cares about their YPAO room correction. They didn't jump the Dirac train. Sony is similar.
JBL offers 5 channel avrs, then 7 and 9 and then 16 channels. No 11 or 13 options.
Trinnov/Storm is a different league and doesn't belong to home audio.

It seems that most of the market belongs to Denon/Marantz as their lineup is the most competitive and almost complete.

Up until a decade ago the manufacturers were racing and fighting to push the newest tech.

This is just my view. I could be wrong.

Well, you just don't hear much about Yamaha and Sony (and others) here at ASR...

But they are still out there, with a decent range of AVR's

 

[Fidji]

Monoprice (ATI OEM) HTP-1.

Is it relevant [in terms of having any meaningful sales] or just existing and selling couple of units every year? Genuine question, as not available in Europe

 

[dlaloum]

Also the chinese are about to get into the game more seriously...

Tonewinner has announced the AT600, with Dirac (no mention of which version of Dirac...)

 

[Oddball]

Do you think this following is mostly the house builders/Home theater installers who just push these devices on consumers who just outsource and let their installer deal with it? I heard that these brands rely on huge margins and only reason they are priced what they are is because of large kickbacks for installers.

Don’t have the data but think that lots of advanced users also go there if budgets allow. Both brands would come with installation and calibration of the units that saves a lots of time. Not everyone wants to tinker to get best sound.

Both brands also push advancement before other brands follow so you do get newest features for the money.

Not for everyone but definitely market for these brands.

 

[Bland_username42069]

The new Sony AVRs look really interesting (as a non expert). I’m certainly intrigued to consider a surround sound music system but personally quad / 4.x is ample for music

 

[Oddball]

The new Sony AVRs look really interesting (as a non expert). I’m certainly intrigued to consider a surround sound music system but personally quad / 4.x is ample for music

Never heard one but many happy users out there and some that switched from D&M or Onkyo. Sony apparently came up with simple calibration process that takes 10 min or so and then provides great sound while on Dirac or even more Audy it would take you much longer to get there. Drawback is that you can’t really tweak much - or for some it could be an advantage.

They also do 3D spatial correction which apparently works. Trinnov does that and apparently Yamaha (although have some reservations about this one).

So yeah, we actually have quite a bit of choice in the AVR space, but I guess some people are not that happy that new model release schedule has slipped beyond historic measures (like for the D&M and Onkyo family as the big dogs in the market).