Did manufacturers give up on AVRs?

[Oddball]

Pretty sure the marketing surrounding home theater that arrived in the 90s along with the initial Dolby 5.1 spec greatly exaggerated that which was actually delivered. The 5.1 spec morphed into 6.1, 7.1, 7.2, and eventually 5.1.4, 7.2.6, and 9.2.6 with the arrival of the Dolby Atmos spec. Consumers trying to keep up with spec changes wound up purchasing 3 or 4 receivers along the way and eventually came to realize that to replicate a theater experience in your house meant building an accrual theater in your house. AVR sales fell off a cliff and most households decided a soundbar was good enough.

5.1 was a revelation compared to previous formats. One of the biggest steps made ever for home entertainment.

Atmos is a significant step up from the bed-layer focused formats.

The fact remains that most people apparently don't appreciate it nowadays as it is cumbersome to implement in the living room.

Another fact remains - soundbars do have steep limitations and whoever implements it is willing to live with those.

 

[TheKoC]

5.1 was a revelation compared to previous formats. One of the biggest steps made ever for home entertainment.

Atmos is a significant step up from the bed-layer focused formats.

The fact remains that most people apparently don't appreciate it nowadays as it is cumbersome to implement in the living room.

Another fact remains - soundbars do have steep limitations and whoever implements it is willing to live with those.

Would love to have an Atmos-Setup, but there no easy way to implement something like 7.1 in my living room, let alone height channels. So for the time beeing, Stereo with 3 Subs has to do for me.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I think the basic 5.1 can be a very good system for lots of people who have rooms that will not allow overhead speakers and can't get 7 or 9 speakers in their setup. Having a good surround system can be easy (if you are very lucky) or it takes awhile to set up. Overall for watching movies it will get the job done. The latest new AVRs with mega channels is way too much for an average person to set up and enjoy. I always recommend an AVR with 5.1 or 5.2 and 7.1 or 7.2. Since most units nowadays offer both in one AVR you can start with 5.1 and go up to 7.2 with the same AVR if you want too. The companies made AVRs that are WAY, WAY too complicated for any average person with the money to spend. The engineers were having fun designing and making the stuff but they left their customers in the dust. If they would keep working on simplifying everything, they would sell more. This is why soundbars are so popular. You can set them up very easily and get decent sound that blows any TV away. So people are happy. Never sell equipment that the customer can't figure out how to use. So many mistakes made in the AVR industry.......

 

[Lekha]

It seems that there is no driving force to develop new AVRs/AVPs.

Perhaps they are simply old-fashioned in this world of streaming.

 

[Oddball]

That's why soundbars have gone a long way. But they are also extremely expensive for what they offer at the high end.

Physics is its own force and can't really be bent to our needs, at least not yet. So difficult to "simplify".

The biggest problem with AVR HT is that people don't plan it. If you plan it when you move to a new place, much easier. Put all the nice stuff in your living room and then do it - not that easy.

But that's likely in line with the new generation's approach to let if flow...

 

[ta240]

When it comes to movie sound, for a very large percentage of people, good enough is... good enough.

The biggest problem with AVR HT is that people don't plan it. If you plan it when you move to a new place, much easier. Put all the nice stuff in your living room and then do it - not that easy.

For most, it just isn't worth that much effort. A sound bar with a subwoofer can vibrate things and make it feel like the sound is immersive enough. For all the people that equate good sound with loud sound that is plenty.

The number of cinema tickets being sold has been declining for some time (even ignoring pandemic impact). While streaming technically gives us access to vastly more 6-channel and up audio than in the past, I think the driver for home cinema and therefore AVRs is more related to cinema hype than it is to the availability of media.

By my assumptions we would only expect a lively AVR segment if the movie industry reinvigorates itself and culture begins to venerate the visual art again. I think indifference and sequelitis have a lot to answer for.

I remember being excited about upcoming movies and looking forward to seeing them. I can't remember the last movie that was like that. As the theater experience went down hill, for awhile, the excitement shifted to watching them at home. They were still events with the projector, popcorn, snacks and immersive sound. Now movies are generally things we select from a streaming service when we've got a couple hours to kill, and hope they don't suck. I often don't even bother turning on the AVR because I don't expect the movies to be good enough to be worth it.

 

[Timcognito]

It's financial, AVR, minimum 5 speakers and a sub, but the real cost is owning and committing it to the space to put it in and thus the market is limited to repeat buyers. Not much different than high end audio, especially when it competes with low cost Bluetooth streaming and headphones.

 

[Mnyb]

In our small ht room 5.1 cuts it for me I can watch movies and get fully immersed in the action/plot I don’t even have a 4k screen

 

[Timcognito]

In our small ht room 5.1 cuts it for me I can watch movies and get fully immersed in the action/plot I don’t even have a 4k screen

Same here but my wife could care less about realistic explosions, planes flying overhead or people yelling behind us on televised games. She does like the music from L&R speakers though.

 

[Oddball]

When it comes to movie sound, for a very large percentage of people, good enough is... good enough.


For most, it just isn't worth that much effort. A sound bar with a subwoofer can vibrate things and make it feel like the sound is immersive enough. For all the people that equate good sound with loud sound that is plenty.


I remember being excited about upcoming movies and looking forward to seeing them. I can't remember the last movie that was like that. As the theater experience went down hill, for awhile, the excitement shifted to watching them at home. They were still events with the projector, popcorn, snacks and immersive sound. Now movies are generally things we select from a streaming service when we've got a couple hours to kill, and hope they don't suck. I often don't even bother turning on the AVR because I don't expect the movies to be good enough to be worth it.

Seriously - you must be missing something really important. Even if speaking on behalf of "most" people - which is a rare talent.

Some shows have seriously entreating soundtracks as well. But agree that in some cases it is better to save a planet and not engage the big guns.

I do really enjoy the content that I like on my system. Looks like you might not be in love with yours?

 

[Chr1]

Glad to see I'm not the only one that has multichannel in bed.

9.2 in living room, 7.1 in bedroom.

Find it hard justifying firing up the projector in the living room in winter.

Way more comfy staying in bed!

 

[ta240]

Seriously - you must be missing something really important. Even if speaking on behalf of "most" people - which is a rare talent.

Some shows have seriously entreating soundtracks as well. But agree that in some cases it is better to save a planet and not engage the big guns.

I do really enjoy the content that I like on my system. Looks like you might not be in love with yours?

View attachment 461760

If it wasn't the case with 'most' people then the AVR industry would be thriving and companies would continually be trying to improve their offerings to compete. Since it is not, then that is a clear indication that it isn't that important to most people. I don't have to have a unique talent of speaking for other people to piece that together.

Even Best Buy, the most mainstream of electronics retailers, rarely has any sort of home theater display anymore. They relegate their more affordable AVRs to shelves towards the back of the store where they aren't even plugged in. Their higher end ones, which aren't even carried in all stores, are generally connected to just stereo speakers in their listening rooms.

But, pretty much every Best Buy has large sections of soundbars that are connected and ready to demo. That would indicate many buy sound bars and very few buy AVRs. Is that speaking for most people or just interpreting the facts?

Home theater for the most part has been relegated to specialty stores that do full installs for a tiny fraction of the population.

You may be in love with your system but I couldn't stand seeing that mess in my room on a day to day basis, so to each their own. At the oh-so-dangerous risk of speaking on behalf of 'most' people I would bet a sizeable chunk of money that a massively higher percentage of people would opt for, at most, a soundbar over anything near the setup in your picture. Keep in mind that in the world of this forum things like that room seem normal but this is far from the real world. 9 out of 10 people I know only replace their audio equipment when something stops working.

I enjoy music and the occasional good movie but they aren't the focus of my life. I love listening to my 2 channel system but with most shows and movies they don't pull me in to the point where I'd rather listen exclusively to them instead of conversing with the people around me or getting on the floor to play with a pet.

 

[EWL5]

If it wasn't the case with 'most' people then the AVR industry would be thriving and companies would continually be trying to improve their offerings to compete. Since it is not, then that is a clear indication that it isn't that important to most people. I don't have to have a unique talent of speaking for other people to piece that together.

Even Best Buy, the most mainstream of electronics retailers, rarely has any sort of home theater display anymore. They relegate their more affordable AVRs to shelves towards the back of the store where they aren't even plugged in. Their higher end ones, which aren't even carried in all stores, are generally connected to just stereo speakers in their listening rooms.

But, pretty much every Best Buy has large sections of soundbars that are connected and ready to demo. That would indicate many buy sound bars and very few buy AVRs. Is that speaking for most people or just interpreting the facts?

Home theater for the most part has been relegated to specialty stores that do full installs for a tiny fraction of the population.

You may be in love with your system but I couldn't stand seeing that mess in my room on a day to day basis, so to each their own. At the oh-so-dangerous risk of speaking on behalf of 'most' people I would bet a sizeable chunk of money that a massively higher percentage of people would opt for, at most, a soundbar over anything near the setup in your picture. Keep in mind that in the world of this forum things like that room seem normal but this is far from the real world. 9 out of 10 people I know only replace their audio equipment when something stops working.

I enjoy music and the occasional good movie but they aren't the focus of my life. I love listening to my 2 channel system but with most shows and movies they don't pull me in to the point where I'd rather listen exclusively to them instead of conversing with the people around me or getting on the floor to play with a pet.

I've noticed quite a bit of Best Buy stores near me have shuttered their Magnolia specialty stores (only the best performing stores got to keep theirs). Folks would rather spend more of their money on the visual (TVs and projectors) and less on the audio (AVR, speakers, etc.).

 

[Fidji]

There is not much going on in terms of new features that would make you NEED new AVR/AVP - format wars are pretty much done, 4K and HDMI are in usable states for most of the receivers introduced 5 years ago.

If you have X600 Denon AVR, you do not have that much reasons to upgrade to x800 generation, unles you really WANT to have 4 subs out and Dirac. But if you are in that group, you probably have x800 already.

And I do not see too much innovation that would be moving the market forward. If you wan to upgrade - there are more gratifying options thant AVR - adding 10-15 in to new TV, buy second sub, add speaker to finally get Atmos etc.

 

[masterhw]

If it wasn't the case with 'most' people then the AVR industry would be thriving and companies would continually be trying to improve their offerings to compete. Since it is not, then that is a clear indication that it isn't that important to most people. I don't have to have a unique talent of speaking for other people to piece that together.

I believe Oddball's reply was more directed to this comment:

I remember being excited about upcoming movies and looking forward to seeing them. I can't remember the last movie that was like that. As the theater experience went down hill, for awhile, the excitement shifted to watching them at home. They were still events with the projector, popcorn, snacks and immersive sound. Now movies are generally things we select from a streaming service when we've got a couple hours to kill, and hope they don't suck. I often don't even bother turning on the AVR because I don't expect the movies to be good enough to be worth it.

I agree with Oddball that we should be cautious to extrapolate your waning interest in movies to general consumer sentiment. It is certainly true, and much discussed, that streaming has changed the movie industry, but it is quite something to say you often don't even bother to engage the AVR. There are reasons to be optimistic, recent article" Yelp reports 562% increase in project requests to install home theater systems."

More to the general point of the thread, my read is that the AVR market is generally saturated with mature designs containing little room to further innovate. That's why its slowed. I have the feeling the industry is building toward a form factor change, with the next major move being toward connected/active lifestyle-like speakers inspired by Apple and other ecosystems. They don't need AVRs. Active speakers can perform highly at affordable prices. And they can do all the processing and decoding they could ever need in software.

Once you remove an AVR/AVP from the video signal path and expect to use it with active speakers containing their own DACs, the remaining processing duties of the device could essentially be performed by a little puck-type device. I haven't followed Sonos closely but its my understanding they've taken an approach along these lines and found some success with it. And while serious HT enthusiasts aren't using Sonos, there's no real reason why that approach is incapable of delivering quality results if a company were serious about it.

 

[Oddball]

If it wasn't the case with 'most' people then the AVR industry would be thriving and companies would continually be trying to improve their offerings to compete. Since it is not, then that is a clear indication that it isn't that important to most people. I don't have to have a unique talent of speaking for other people to piece that together.

Even Best Buy, the most mainstream of electronics retailers, rarely has any sort of home theater display anymore. They relegate their more affordable AVRs to shelves towards the back of the store where they aren't even plugged in. Their higher end ones, which aren't even carried in all stores, are generally connected to just stereo speakers in their listening rooms.

But, pretty much every Best Buy has large sections of soundbars that are connected and ready to demo. That would indicate many buy sound bars and very few buy AVRs. Is that speaking for most people or just interpreting the facts?

Home theater for the most part has been relegated to specialty stores that do full installs for a tiny fraction of the population.

You may be in love with your system but I couldn't stand seeing that mess in my room on a day to day basis, so to each their own. At the oh-so-dangerous risk of speaking on behalf of 'most' people I would bet a sizeable chunk of money that a massively higher percentage of people would opt for, at most, a soundbar over anything near the setup in your picture. Keep in mind that in the world of this forum things like that room seem normal but this is far from the real world. 9 out of 10 people I know only replace their audio equipment when something stops working.

I enjoy music and the occasional good movie but they aren't the focus of my life. I love listening to my 2 channel system but with most shows and movies they don't pull me in to the point where I'd rather listen exclusively to them instead of conversing with the people around me or getting on the floor to play with a pet.

You keep speaking for most of the people, based on a guess that is not bad one. We are obviously talking about the decline of AVR market. This is happening on the basis of people not wanting to enjoy the benefits of the proper HT setup which is their prerogative. It is not the only area where people are opting for inferior solutions. It is quite common nowadays. Get less for more is the name of the game.

BTW - my HT is on my own personal floor out of 3 we have in the flat, so I can do there what I feel like I need to do. And yes the wife barely accommodated the sound-bar at the main living room and only because if was curved as the display so kind of made sense to her.

 

[Oddball]

I believe Oddball's reply was more directed to this comment:

I agree with Oddball that we should be cautious to extrapolate your waning interest in movies to general consumer sentiment. It is certainly true, and much discussed, that streaming has changed the movie industry, but it is quite something to say you often don't even bother to engage the AVR. There are reasons to be optimistic, recent article" Yelp reports 562% increase in project requests to install home theater systems."

More to the general point of the thread, my read is that the AVR market is generally saturated with mature designs containing little room to further innovate. That's why its slowed. I have the feeling the industry is building toward a form factor change, with the next major move being toward connected/active lifestyle-like speakers inspired by Apple and other ecosystems. They don't need AVRs. Active speakers can perform highly at affordable prices. And they can do all the processing and decoding they could ever need in software.

Once you remove an AVR/AVP from the video signal path and expect to use it with active speakers containing their own DACs, the remaining processing duties of the device could essentially be performed by a little puck-type device. I haven't followed Sonos closely but its my understanding they've taken an approach along these lines and found some success with it. And while serious HT enthusiasts aren't using Sonos, there's no real reason why that approach is incapable of delivering quality results if a company were serious about it.

Some great news. And thanks for sharing.

We are at the crossroads, and difficult to say which way it will go. Nothing wrong with AVRs and HTs going into a niche. There will always be Storm and Trinnov around even if others give up. But would be sad for the others as entry ticket would go beyond what is generally considered affordable.

Active is really interesting and novel approach and agree that it has its future. But if there was a problem with wiring classic HT, this just brings it up a notch as you need power and signal cables to each speaker location.

Having a wireless solution for passive speakers is probably what most would welcome at this point. But even then, you can't really hand the ceiling speakers without getting your hands a bit dirty. New generations seems to be really comfortable, so seems that this is the problem.

 

[ta240]

I believe Oddball's reply was more directed to this comment:

That comment was purely my person take on it. Since he addressed my 'speaking for most people' that would indicate it was a response to the first part of my post.

I agree with Oddball that we should be cautious to extrapolate your waning interest in movies to general consumer sentiment.

I wasn't trying to extrapolate anything into consumer sentiment, I just added my own experience with movies.

It is certainly true, and much discussed, that streaming has changed the movie industry, but it is quite something to say you often don't even bother to engage the AVR. There are reasons to be optimistic, recent article" Yelp reports 562% increase in project requests to install home theater systems."

Percentages aren't that useful without the actual numbers.

According to the census in 2023, there were 131.43 million households in the United States. For any useful information we would need to know how many of those just use the speaker in the TV, how many use a soundbar and how many use an AVR with some form of surround sound and how many of each are satisfied with the setup.

 

[Oddball]

That comment was purely my person take on it. Since he addressed my 'speaking for most people' that would indicate it was a response to the first part of my post.


I wasn't trying to extrapolate anything into consumer sentiment, I just added my own experience with movies.


Percentages aren't that useful without the actual numbers.

According to the census in 2023, there were 131.43 million households in the United States. For any useful information we would need to know how many of those just use the speaker in the TV, how many use a soundbar and how many use an AVR with some form of surround sound and how many of each are satisfied with the setup.

So it the US the measure of the world then?

 

[Bleib]

I think HDMI 2.2 will be marketable for those who want the latest