Device for Equal Loudness/Fletcher Munson Curve? Do Any Speakers Adapt to This?

[stevenswall]

What other loudness curves are you taking about?

There's an ISO one, a Fletcher Munson one, and I believe an updated version of one of those as well. None of them look as simple as the Audessey one.

 

[dasdoing]

There's an ISO one, a Fletcher Munson one, and I believe an updated version of one of those as well

the iso is a meta-study. Fletcher Munson is very old.

None of them look as simple as the Audessey one.

Device for Equal Loudness/Fletcher Munson Curve? Do Any Speakers Adapt to This?

unfortunatly the implementation is wrong: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/should-you-use-fletcher-munson-loudness-compensation.29543/page-9#post-1400113 I am using EQ-curves I am engaging by hand

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Hayabusa]

There's an ISO one, a Fletcher Munson one, and I believe an updated version of one of those as well. None of them look as simple as the Audessey one.

The loudness correction curve looks very different from the loudness curves themself s.
I think audyssey did a good job in making an approximation of that correction curve.

this is copied from https://www.merlijnvanveen.nl/en/calculators/59-equal-loudness

The ISO 226 curves:

And these are the deltas between the lines needed for correction:

Quick check with the 20Hz corrections of audyssey:

iso audyssey
90db: -5dB -4dB
80dB: 0dB 0dB
70dB: +5dB +4dB
60dB: +11dB +8dB
50dB: +16dB +18dB
40dB: +21dB +18dB

(just did some rough peek to get these numbers from the 'fuzzy' audyssey graph, so they will not be highly accurate)

 

[stevenswall]

The loudness correction curve looks very different from the loudness curves themself s.
I think audyssey did a good job in making an approximation of that correction curve.

this is copied from https://www.merlijnvanveen.nl/en/calculators/59-equal-loudness

The ISO 226 curves:

View attachment 294114

And these are the deltas between the lines needed for correction:

View attachment 294113

Quick check with the 20Hz corrections of audyssey:

iso audyssey
90db: -5dB -4dB
80dB: 0dB 0dB
70dB: +5dB +4dB
60dB: +11dB +8dB
50dB: +16dB +18dB
40dB: +21dB +18dB

(just did some rough peek to get these numbers from the 'fuzzy' audyssey graph, so they will not be highly accurate)

Looks like it's within a few DB, and that makes sense how you explained it. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[ZolaIII]

Old Yamaha implementation as measured where you manually adjust it to average SPL you listen to (no to max - 30 dB):

Still one of the better ones.
I use ISO 226 2003 implementation in JRiver and it works well. I even use equal loudness normalisation in my Renault and it makes it's embedded audio system plesent enough, by the way that's the easiest implementation as it's close system (already EQ-ed and calibrated) so you just enable it in settings. Too bad they didn't make more effort regarding putting in better amplifier and driver's but well that's how things go usually.

 

[Chromatischism]

Do you use that feature on your Marantz? I'm very torn between something with loudness contours (Monoprice, Marantz, Denon) and something with digital output (JBL SDP58.)

I had not really paid attention to Dynamic EQ-the name did not make me think of loudness compensation. Is that all it is doing? I seem to recall some folks not liking it. I would *think* the level would get calibrated when you run Audyssey? (Hence if used uncalibrated I can imagine complaints)

Dynamic EQ is always on 100% of the time in my system. It's one of the big reasons I keep using Denon AVRs (aside from value and reliability).

I also have very neutral speakers which are perfectly suitable. Some speakers, such as B&W, are NOT suitable for Dynamic EQ.

Most complaints come from equipment mismatch or improper setup.

 

[tmtomh]

Old Yamaha implementation as measured where you manually adjust it to average SPL you listen to (no to max - 30 dB):
View attachment 294431
Still one of the better ones.
I use ISO 226 2003 implementation in JRiver and it works well. I even use equal loudness normalisation in my Renault and it makes it's embedded audio system plesent enough, by the way that's the easiest implementation as it's close system (already EQ-ed and calibrated) so you just enable it in settings. Too bad they didn't make more effort regarding putting in better amplifier and driver's but well that's how things go usually.

I always thought Yamaha had the most intelligent implementation of the loudness control - it just makes so much sense to enable the user to calibrate it to their typical listening volume (or to use the level control to tweak the degree of loudness compensation based on their personal preference).

 

[ZolaIII]

I always thought Yamaha had the most intelligent implementation of the loudness control - it just makes so much sense to enable the user to calibrate it to their typical listening volume (or to use the level control to tweak the degree of loudness compensation based on their personal preference).

Yamahas loudness control's are indeed very good, however in most of they stereo power amplifiers it applies only on speakers output and not the sub's (so not very useful). Second part of the post I referred to car stock audio system not the Yamahas, have a nice time and I hope you will get those speakers to how you want.

 

[tmtomh]

Yamahas loudness control's are indeed very good, however in most of they stereo power amplifiers it applies only on speakers output and not the sub's (so not very useful). Second part of the post I referred to car stock audio system not the Yamahas,have a nice time and I hope you will get those speakers to how you want.

Ah yes, very good point about subs - I was thinking of the late 1970s and early 1980s Yamaha stereo-only receivers, at a time when (as far as I know) subwoofers were less common in folks' home setups.

 

[ZolaIII]

Ah yes, very good point about subs - I was thinking of the late 1970s and early 1980s Yamaha stereo-only receivers, at a time when (as far as I know) subwoofers were less common in folks' home setups.

But a big three way compression (close enclosure) speakers were much more often. When you think about it as it's almost the same thing (today's woffer's in sub's are better off course) it whose simper then.

 

[krabapple]

Dynamic EQ is always on 100% of the time in my system. It's one of the big reasons I keep using Denon AVRs (aside from value and reliability).

I also have very neutral speakers which are perfectly suitable. Some speakers, such as B&W, are NOT suitable for Dynamic EQ.

Most complaints come from equipment mismatch or improper setup.

Some complaints are because DEQ does a thing in surround systems -- raises the output of the surround channels by a few dB -- that annoys some people. It can't be turned off. Audyssey says they have psychoacoustic data to back it up, but it seems to be 'in-house'.

 

[Chromatischism]

Some complaints are because DEQ does a thing in surround systems -- raises the output of the surround channels by a few dB -- that annoys some people. It can't be turned off. Audyssey says they have psychoacoustic data to back it up, but it seems to be 'in-house'.

Yeah it's not a big deal if you know what you're doing. I just decrease my surround levels by a few dB and level match my system with DEQ on at my typical movie volume.

They should of course improve this so less tinkering is needed.

 

[abdo123]

Some complaints are because DEQ does a thing in surround systems -- raises the output of the surround channels by a few dB -- that annoys some people. It can't be turned off. Audyssey says they have psychoacoustic data to back it up, but it seems to be 'in-house'.

the latest gen receivers give the options to modify the intensity of the effect (specifically raising the level of surrounds).

 

[Willem]

Adjustable dynamic loudness is one of the great features of the RMe ADI-2.

 

[Head_Unit]

DEQ does a thing in surround systems -- raises the output of the surround channels by a few dB -- that annoys some people. It can't be turned off. Audyssey says they have psychoacoustic data to back it up, but it seems to be 'in-house'.

Hah, the data probably says "if we don't do this nobody notices the effect" rather like HDCD's required -6 dB hit to any non-HDCD playback [skeptical emoji]. Or they decided this after smoking the same stuff that made them decide a midrange dip was a necessary thing for our $6k of Focal speakers...

 

[dlaloum]

Most AVR's that run Dolby Surround, also have Dolby Loudness that can be turned on...

So most of the AVR's out there will have some form of loudness correction/adjustment

 

[TimoJ]

Most AVR's that run Dolby Surround, also have Dolby Loudness that can be turned on...

So most of the AVR's out there will have some form of loudness correction/adjustment

What is this "Dolby loudness"? Do you mean Dolby Volume? It doesn't appear to be a common feature with Dolby surround units. And I think it won't work with 2 ch music etc.

 

[dlaloum]

What is this "Dolby loudness"? Do you mean Dolby Volume? It doesn't appear to be a common feature with Dolby surround units. And I think it won't work with 2 ch music etc.

Dolby Surround in its latest version (renamed from Dolby Digital etc...) is not the same as the Dolby decoders and mixers of 15 years ago.

On my current Integra DRX 3.4 - I can run the Dolby Surround mixer/decoder, and when I do, I have the option to use "loudness" (ie: Fletcher-Muson style EQ profiles related to the calibrated volume level) and/or "Late Night" mode which is basically compression.

On my 2008 and 2013 AVR's I had the previous generation Dolby setup, and on those I had the option of "Dolby Volume" - but those both ran Audyssey, and the Audyssey versions of the Loudness and Compression systems were superior.

There is no longer a "Dolby Volume" - now the options are "Loudness" and "Late Night"

I find that they do a very good job.

 

[krabapple]

Hah, the data probably says "if we don't do this nobody notices the effect" rather like HDCD's required -6 dB hit to any non-HDCD playback [skeptical emoji].

ISTR SACD players did much the same.

 

[krabapple]

Dolby Surround in its latest version (renamed from Dolby Digital etc...) is not the same as the Dolby decoders and mixers of 15 years ago.

On my current Integra DRX 3.4 - I can run the Dolby Surround mixer/decoder, and when I do, I have the option to use "loudness" (ie: Fletcher-Muson style EQ profiles related to the calibrated volume level) and/or "Late Night" mode which is basically compression.

On my 2008 and 2013 AVR's I had the previous generation Dolby setup, and on those I had the option of "Dolby Volume" - but those both ran Audyssey, and the Audyssey versions of the Loudness and Compression systems were superior.

There is no longer a "Dolby Volume" - now the options are "Loudness" and "Late Night"

I find that they do a very good job.

Interesting, I suspect these may be Onkyo/Integra specific Dolby options; my Denon doesn't have them and I only see reference to them online in queries an manuals about Onkyo and Integra models.