Device for Equal Loudness/Fletcher Munson Curve? Do Any Speakers Adapt to This?

[dasdoing]

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unfortunatly the implementation is wrong: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...udness-compensation.29543/page-9#post-1400113

I am using EQ-curves I am engaging by hand

 

[phoenixsong]

Does the curve have different values for speakers vs headphones vs iems?

 

[dasdoing]

Does the curve have different values for speakers vs headphones vs iems?

probably not, if you study the ISO it is actually a meta-study made out of several studies, including the outdated Flatcher/Munsun.

 

[Head_Unit]

I use the Marantz AV8805 for this.
Audyssey makes sure the level is calibrated and you can still have an offset to the reference level in case your music material needs it.

Can you explain more? It has a variable loudness like some Yamaha? Or is it that one Audyssey function I forget the name of?

 

[Hayabusa]

Can you explain more? It has a variable loudness like some Yamaha? Or is it that one Audyssey function I forget the name of?

Yes, the "Dynamic EQ" of Audessey is a variable loudness that only depends on the volume control.

 

[stevenswall]

Yes, the "Dynamic EQ" of Audessey is a variable loudness that only depends on the volume control.

Do you use that feature on your Marantz? I'm very torn between something with loudness contours (Monoprice, Marantz, Denon) and something with digital output (JBL SDP58.)

 

[j_j]

Do you use that feature on your Marantz? I'm very torn between something with loudness contours (Monoprice, Marantz, Denon) and something with digital output (JBL SDP58.)

To do proper loudness correction, you must know the exact system transfer across frequency (at least on ERB spacing if not better), AND know the system gain, AND change the "correction" as a function of signal.

 

[Head_Unit]

Yes, the "Dynamic EQ" of Audessey is a variable loudness that only depends on the volume control.

To do proper loudness correction, you must know the exact system transfer across frequency (at least on ERB spacing if not better), AND know the system gain, AND change the "correction" as a function of signal.

I had not really paid attention to Dynamic EQ-the name did not make me think of loudness compensation. Is that all it is doing? I seem to recall some folks not liking it. I would *think* the level would get calibrated when you run Audyssey? (Hence if used uncalibrated I can imagine complaints)

 

[j_j]

I had not really paid attention to Dynamic EQ-the name did not make me think of loudness compensation. Is that all it is doing? I seem to recall some folks not liking it. I would *think* the level would get calibrated when you run Audyssey? (Hence if used uncalibrated I can imagine complaints)

I said "loudness correction", which means keeping the same perceived timbre at different levels, among other things.

"loudness buttons" are best known as a "bad idea".

 

[Hayabusa]

I had not really paid attention to Dynamic EQ-the name did not make me think of loudness compensation. Is that all it is doing? I seem to recall some folks not liking it. I would *think* the level would get calibrated when you run Audyssey? (Hence if used uncalibrated I can imagine complaints)

Yes, once calibrated with Audyssey it will work quite well, but as there is no playback level standards for the recording you can adjust the reference level to 0,-5,-10,-15db. For music I typically use -10dB, for movie 0dB.

 

[Hayabusa]

To do proper loudness correction, you must know the exact system transfer across frequency (at least on ERB spacing if not better), AND know the system gain, AND change the "correction" as a function of signal.

At least Audyssey is doing many this right in this case. It tries to calibrate the system transfer function, calibrates system gain and does the correction based on volume gain.
For THX/HT sources the reference level is well defined so it should sound as intended.
For other recordings this is not the case and the reference level offset comes in place to correct for it.

 

[Hayabusa]

At least Audyssey is doing many this right in this case. It tries to calibrate the system transfer function, calibrates system gain and does the correction based on volume gain.
For THX/HT sources the reference level is well defined so it should sound as intended.
For other recordings this is not the case and the reference level offset comes in place to correct for it.

Typo: this ->things

 

[dasdoing]

it should read out LUFS values of each track....but for this it needs to have full access to the song before it plays. Fortunately loudness normalization is industry standard in streaming services.

 

[stevenswall]

To do proper loudness correction, you must know the exact system transfer across frequency (at least on ERB spacing if not better), AND know the system gain, AND change the "correction" as a function of signal.

What do you mean transfer across frequency?

Source=flat
Speakers=No Flat but similar at different volume levels not pushing it, and so long as one can accept that we could treat it as flat
System Gain=Seems we'd only need to know the volume level where we want nothing changes, and then how many decibels down it is, then apply the loudness correction curves.


If one has a measurement mic it doesn't seem like it should be an issue worrying about "proper" or not, as any compensation like this I've heard even only basic Sonos speakers sounds better than not hearing bass at low volumes.

 

[j_j]

What do you mean transfer across frequency?

Source=flat
Speakers=No Flat but similar at different volume levels not pushing it, and so long as one can accept that we could treat it as flat
System Gain=Seems we'd only need to know the volume level where we want nothing changes, and then how many decibels down it is, then apply the loudness correction curves.


If one has a measurement mic it doesn't seem like it should be an issue worrying about "proper" or not, as any compensation like this I've heard even only basic Sonos speakers sounds better than not hearing bass at low volumes.

I suggest you look into how loudness grows with level vs. masking level and absolute threshold. You've missing the entire point, but it is somewhat obscure.

Somewhere in some of my talks I have addressed "loudness growth". If I remembered where, I'd tell you. Sorry. Maybe that's a subject for a talk.

Edited to add: See my recent talk on "what is masking". I'm pretty sure I addressed loudness growth (yes, it's a technical term) somewhere in that talk.

 

[stevenswall]

I suggest you look into how loudness grows with level vs. masking level and absolute threshold. You've missing the entire point, but it is somewhat obscure.

Somewhere in some of my talks I have addressed "loudness growth". If I remembered where, I'd tell you. Sorry. Maybe that's a subject for a talk.

Edited to add: See my recent talk on "what is masking". I'm pretty sure I addressed loudness growth (yes, it's a technical term) somewhere in that talk.

Trying to find a recording or youtube video of that talk but googling keywords and your signature or name don't return good results.

If there's a better system that integrates these factors you mention to provide more audible bass frequencies and compensate for hearing being less sensitive at certain frequencies as volume goes down I'm all ears.

Curious if there's a lot that we can throw away to simplify things since there are already working implementations that sound great vs not having loudness compensation: Sonos, Google, Devialet.

For anyone reading, I think this is "Loudness Growth" which is stating that at 1000hz the perceived loudness and the decibel level received are the same, but that for higher or lower frequencies they don't correspond directly and follow the Fletcher Munson curve:

"THE LOUDNESS growth in the normal ear adheres to a rather precise formula in conformity with the corresponding increase in intensity. At 1,000 cps a one to one ratio is obtainable between the sensation units of loudness and the decibels of intensity, while for all other cycles, the growth of loudness follows the equal loudness contour of Fletcher and Munson."

THE GROWTH OF LOUDNESS

THE LOUDNESS growth in the normal ear adheres to a rather precise formula in conformity with the corresponding increase in intensity. At 1,000 cps a one to one ratio is obtainable between the sensation units of loudness and the decibels of intensity, while for all other cycles, the growth of...

jamanetwork.com

Thus the need for a system where one can set an output to flat, and then have the system adjust each frequency differently as the volume is lowered, perhaps with a scale that applies the change more or less aggressively, or with a measurement taken at multiple volume/perceived volume levels and the user asked what they like.

I wish Dirac could do something like this, or if Genelec got into high end home system more, seems like everything is there to accomplish this whether with a default/standard that could be switched on and off after taking GLM measurements, or a user adjustable setting.

 

[Hayabusa]

Thus the need for a system where one can set an output to flat, and then have the system adjust each frequency differently as the volume is lowered, perhaps with a scale that applies the change more or less aggressively, or with a measurement taken at multiple volume/perceived volume levels and the user asked what they like.

This is what dynamic EQ of Audyssey does.

The strait line is at 0,-5,-10 or -15 db depending on the reference level offset

 

[stevenswall]

This is what dynamic EQ of Audyssey does.

Doesn't look like they put much though into following any of the loudness curves I've seen. I tried Audessey Dynamic EQ on a Denon receiver once, but there was so much hiss from the ADC I had to use to make it work with my Genelec sub that I didn't get to enjoy it.

 

[Hayabusa]

Doesn't look like they put much though into following any of the loudness curves I've seen. I tried Audessey Dynamic EQ on a Denon receiver once, but there was so much hiss from the ADC I had to use to make it work with my Genelec sub that I didn't get to enjoy it.

What other loudness curves are you taking about?

 

[dasdoing]

Doesn't look like they put much though into following any of the loudness curves I've seen. I tried Audessey Dynamic EQ on a Denon receiver once, but there was so much hiss from the ADC I had to use to make it work with my Genelec sub that I didn't get to enjoy it.

don't confuse, the reference is flat. so, to compensate, apply a curve that equals the difference between two loudness levels. e.g. if you reference at 83 and want to compensate at 73, subtract the 73 curve from the 83 one.