Devialet Phantom v.s. Focal BE6

[stunta]

I don't know what crunchy sound is, but I played some speech and music on mine yesterday (I don't use them often) and didn't notice anything untoward.
They are not class-D.

I feel like a troll for making statements like "crunchy sound". Apologies. The dealer who demoed them for me told me they have class D amps so I took his word for it as it corroborated my listening impressions. Rookie mistake. It could have been the room which had a lot of glass and was not treated (under renovation apparently).

As for the warranty and repair issues pointed out, its worth noting that warranty comes at a cost and that cost is usually rolled into the pricing and the buyer pays for it. I feel the Devialets are competitively priced given what they do. My guess is that the majority of their target audience are expected to be wowed by the phantoms, swipe their credit cards and take them home. I must admit, I almost did that. Their visual appeal was also a factor. Was I thinking about repairing them 3 years down the line when I saw and heard them? Absolutely not. I stopped thinking. They almost won.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I remember reading something about them being a class A and D hybrid? Seemed a intresting idea but Iv not looked into it with any depth.

Back before they got loads of big investors they were an engineering company with a really simple, easy to navigate web site and there was a white paper on their patented ADH, Class A,D hybrid circuit.
In a nutshell the output of the DAC goes straight to a class A amp which is connected to the speaker output and is the voltage amplifier. The voltage is kept accurately what it has been defined to be by this class A circuit using their patent system which usies 4 class D current dumpers, a bit like the Quad circuit in concept but engineered differently. The current supplies are running out of phase with each other and transformer coupled to the load, to avoid switching effects.
So it should, and does ime, sound like a class-A amp but can deliver the current much more efficiently.

Since the new investors, the web site has become irritatingly shite. I think if I had only become interested recently rather than 5 years ago I probably wouldn't have got further than being exasperated by the web site.
Weirdly enough the thing I like best about the amps is the rotary volume control on the remote. The thing I like least about the Phantom is the fact that it is really a streaming system, though I have tv sound and a CD transport connected as well.

 

[Thomas savage]

I feel like a troll for making statements like "crunchy sound". Apologies. The dealer who demoed them for me told me they have class D amps so I took his word for it as it corroborated my listening impressions. Rookie mistake. It could have been the room which had a lot of glass and was not treated (under renovation apparently).

As for the warranty and repair issues pointed out, its worth noting that warranty comes at a cost and that cost is usually rolled into the pricing and the buyer pays for it. I feel the Devialets are competitively priced given what they do. My guess is that the majority of their target audience are expected to be wowed by the phantoms, swipe their credit cards and take them home. I must admit, I almost did that. Their visual appeal was also a factor. Was I thinking about repairing them 3 years down the line when I saw and heard them? Absolutely not. I stopped thinking. They almost won.

LOL don’t worry

looking at the measurements they do seem to be on the loud side in the HF range so maybe that’s the issue.. the room I listened in had a curtain all round it and they sounded fine in the highs but out in the store I was detecting a little too much in that department for my taste. You can’t adjust it though, bit of a waste given all the DSP in use.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I am going on this article:
http://sound.whsites.net/project48.htm
Basically, using a large box you might put 20W into a subwoofer for the required SPL, but if you go very small, you might need something like 5kW for the same SPL! It's the price you would pay for a tiny thing you could carry around to parties maybe, but for a more permanent installation (like if you're using the stands anyway) it seems a bit unnecessary. You could just get a bigger box..?

One of the thing making the Phantom good is the form factor and coaxial mid-tweeter. A box is always that, a box, with all the acoustic shortcomings. Big boxes are very very expensive to make less acoustically destructive. Also, IME a stand mounted speaker always sounds better than a tower speaker with the same volume and drive units, so are out for me anyway.
I have just connected a mains monitor to one of the Phantoms. At idle it consumes 19 watts. Playing classical music ay my normal listening levels, 28dB minimum, 81 dB peak, 60db average at my seat about 3m from the speakers, it consumes between 24 and 29 watts, this is a slow meter and I am not watching every moment so some peaks may be missed. On Roger Water's live "Another brick in the wall" at maximum (70 on the volume setting according to Devialet) the peak loudness went up to 93dB at my listening chair, mean of 83dB and the highest power I saw on the meter was 127 W but mainly 75 to 100 region. On really loud organ music not registering above 60 watts, surprisingly - obviously not much bass.

 

[Frank Dernie]

LOL don’t worry

looking at the measurements they do seem to be on the loud side in the HF range so maybe that’s the issue.. the room I listened in had a curtain all round it and they sounded fine in the highs but out in the store I was detecting a little too much in that department for my taste. You can’t adjust it though, bit of a waste given all the DSP in use.

I have done a crude frequency response comparison between the Phantoms, Goldmund Epilogs and Tune Audio Animas in my listening chair using a sound level meter and the Stereophile warble tone CD.
The speakers are located in different places so excite the room differently. The Goldmunds were adjusted first, 20 years ago, for a good in room response. The Animas are in the corners for the benefit of the bass horn and the Phantoms are more or less the only useable place left
Tested at around 75dB at my chair 3m from the Phantoms, 4m from Epilogs and 5.5 m from Animas. They are within a few dB at 50 Hz, the Anima drops first, same at 40 as 50 but 7dB down at 31.5Hz. Epilog a tad more at 25 Hz than Phantom but then the Epilog has gone at 20 Hz and the Phantom still going strong!
At 2khz region (this is audibly a high note as far as I am concerned though known as mid frequency) the Epilog and Phantom are the same with Anima 3 dB down but actually the same as at 40Hz. At 3150Hz, around the highest note on a piano - more of a plink than a note , they are within a dB. From then on the Anima and Epilog hardly roll off at all to 10kHz but the Phantom rolls off a touch more. Higher than that it is the Epilog which rolls off least and the Anima most with Phantom in between.

 

[mitchco]

Thanks @svart-hvitt for linking to my article. Here is the frequency response of the Golds at the LP compared to my reference:

They really had boost in the low end, almost 8 or 9 dB SPL relative to flat. Too much for my preference. Same with the top end. A good 5 dB SPL above my preference and relative to Toole's and Olive's research on preferred steady state room responses.

But matches nicely through 100 Hz to 5 kHz to my reference, with a bit of a suckout in the 2 to 4 kHz range. I really liked their omnidirectional characteristics and definitely a different bass tone.

It is really too bad that they don't have a built in way to adjust the bottom and top, but if you are prepared to use tone controls, or PEQ filters (or even full DSP) to adjust that preference, they would sound better. As is, I had to take them down from listening, as it was too bass heavy, and I simply can't stand overly bright speakers.

If you wanted to apply some eq, you could use my chart above as a starting spot to dial in less boost at the frequency extremes and maybe just a bit of a lift in the 2 to 4 kHz range...

 

[Thomas savage]

Thanks @svart-hvitt for linking to my article. Here is the frequency response of the Golds at the LP compared to my reference:

View attachment 10105

They really had boost in the low end, almost 8 or 9 dB SPL relative to flat. Too much for my preference. Same with the top end. A good 5 dB SPL above my preference and relative to Toole's and Olive's research on preferred steady state room responses.

But matches nicely through 100 Hz to 5 kHz to my reference, with a bit of a suckout in the 2 to 4 kHz range. I really liked their omnidirectional characteristics and definitely a different bass tone.

It is really too bad that they don't have a built in way to adjust the bottom and top, but if you are prepared to use tone controls, or PEQ filters (or even full DSP) to adjust that preference, they would sound better. As is, I had to take them down from listening, as it was too bass heavy, and I simply can't stand overly bright speakers.

If you wanted to apply some eq, you could use my chart above as a starting spot to dial in less boost at the frequency extremes and maybe just a bit of a lift in the 2 to 4 kHz range...

I read somewhere about a 3khz dip of a few dB being a good thing? Something to do with psychoacoustic research..?

 

[mitchco]

The Gundry or BBC dip?

 

[Wombat]

Having owned a Devialet amp for almost two years, I can report that the company has serious QC and customer service issues. The amps are technically impressive in certain respects, yes, but the company seems confused about to whom it is marketing and what its long-term plans are.

"We don't need you, you need us" attitude?

 

[Frank Dernie]

"We don't need you, you need us" attitude?

I wouldn't say that from my experience, the footsoldiers try their best to be helpful ime, both on the Phantom and amps. My reading of the problem is a management, my guess after a big injection of invesor funds, keep immediately announcing and/or launching new ideas and products when enough actual people who have to deal with it haven't been hired yet, and often before they have a clue how long they will take to bring to market - particularly software.
I would say that at the beginning (over 5 tears ago) they were excellent and the absurdities began after they got a huge investment from the LVMH bloke and presumably had his markeeting approach applied despite that not being at all appropriate (IMO).
My satisfaction was very high initially. I still think the amp is the best out there the Phantoms are super in my room but obviously very room position dependant, given the deep bass response capability, something not at all consistent with the way they are marketed.
One thing many customers get excited about is a promise of regular free software updates. Talk about making a rod for your own back. They clearly have nowhere near enough software people to deal with expectations now.

 

[Wombat]

I wouldn't say that from my experience, the footsoldiers try their best to be helpful ime, both on the Phantom and amps. My reading of the problem is a management, my guess after a big injection of invesor funds, keep immediately announcing and/or launching new ideas and products when enough actual people who have to deal with it haven't been hired yet, and often before they have a clue how long they will take to bring to market - particularly software.
I would say that at the beginning (over 5 tears ago) they were excellent and the absurdities began after they got a huge investment from the LVMH bloke and presumably had his markeeting approach applied despite that not being at all appropriate (IMO).
My satisfaction was very high initially. I still think the amp is the best out there the Phantoms are super in my room but obviously very room position dependant, given the deep bass response capability, something not at all consistent with the way they are marketed.
One thing many customers get excited about is a promise of regular free software updates. Talk about making a rod for your own back. They clearly have nowhere near enough software people to deal with expectations now.

OK, premature release of products to suit investors?

 

[Frank Dernie]

OK, premature release of products to suit investors?

So it seems to me.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Thanks @svart-hvitt for linking to my article. Here is the frequency response of the Golds at the LP compared to my reference:

View attachment 10105

They really had boost in the low end, almost 8 or 9 dB SPL relative to flat. Too much for my preference. Same with the top end. A good 5 dB SPL above my preference and relative to Toole's and Olive's research on preferred steady state room responses.

But matches nicely through 100 Hz to 5 kHz to my reference, with a bit of a suckout in the 2 to 4 kHz range. I really liked their omnidirectional characteristics and definitely a different bass tone.

It is really too bad that they don't have a built in way to adjust the bottom and top, but if you are prepared to use tone controls, or PEQ filters (or even full DSP) to adjust that preference, they would sound better. As is, I had to take them down from listening, as it was too bass heavy, and I simply can't stand overly bright speakers.

If you wanted to apply some eq, you could use my chart above as a starting spot to dial in less boost at the frequency extremes and maybe just a bit of a lift in the 2 to 4 kHz range...

I am pretty confident that the bass excess is due to their position in the room.
Why? Three reasons:
Firstly I have found all speakers that reach that low to be exceedingly room position sensitive.
Secondly the bass response measured shows a marked difference between right and left, which is less likely to be in the speakers than their different position in room.
Thirdly my Phantoms in this room do not show this big an excess in the bass.

 

[Purité Audio]

I am surprised the Phantoms don’t have in built boundary filters, most contemporary ‘pro’ speakers have them, even if they are not as sophisticated as Kii/Dutch&Dutch.
Keith

 

[Frank Dernie]

I am surprised the Phantoms don’t have in built boundary filters, most contemporary ‘pro’ speakers have them, even if they are not as sophisticated as Kii/Dutch&Dutch.
Keith

me too!

 

[Purité Audio]

LOl it is very useful though to be able to place the speakers more or less where you like and then adjust output, especially if the room opens out to one side, or you have a window etc etc, the 8Cs in particular are designed to be ‘boundary coupled ‘ , bass is is clear and extremely well defined.
Keith

 

[Soniclife]

I wouldn't say that from my experience, the footsoldiers try their best to be helpful ime, both on the Phantom and amps. My reading of the problem is a management, my guess after a big injection of invesor funds, keep immediately announcing and/or launching new ideas and products when enough actual people who have to deal with it haven't been hired yet, and often before they have a clue how long they will take to bring to market - particularly software.
I would say that at the beginning (over 5 tears ago) they were excellent and the absurdities began after they got a huge investment from the LVMH bloke and presumably had his markeeting approach applied despite that not being at all appropriate (IMO).
My satisfaction was very high initially. I still think the amp is the best out there the Phantoms are super in my room but obviously very room position dependant, given the deep bass response capability, something not at all consistent with the way they are marketed.
One thing many customers get excited about is a promise of regular free software updates. Talk about making a rod for your own back. They clearly have nowhere near enough software people to deal with expectations now.

My experience is they are very good at hardware support, but the people on the front line are clearly not being briefed correctly for software faults, and they are hopeless at fixing software faults. They seem focused on coming up with something new all the time, and forget to develop fairly straightforward features that are missing, they seem to still be in the new startup move fast and break things mentality, which isn't appropriate for where they are now with people spending large amounts of money for physical products that are reasonably expected to just work.
I'm entitled to the new streaming board upgrade, I'm waiting until they release some none beta firmware, and people on forums say it's stable for what I need, I have no idea if this is going to be a few weeks, or more than 6 months, a complete farce to release hardware before the software is ready.

 

[Thomas savage]

LOl it is very useful though to be able to place the speakers more or less where you like and then adjust output, especially if the room opens out to one side, or you have a window etc etc, the 8Cs in particular are designed to be ‘boundary coupled ‘ , bass is is clear and extremely well defined.
Keith

The 8C’s seem like great speakers, unfortunately they are twice the price and don’t carry the WAF factor..

Between the two there’s a fantastic speaker system for the home, a gap in the market is there imo.

The market is obsessed with sound bars right now though, or one box solutions.. I do think the engaging drama of the phantoms aesthetic design is the way forward not to mention the acoustic benefits of its form.

For uk ‘audiophiles’ the 8C is the perfect speaker by the look of it , you must be selling loads.

 

[Purité Audio]

WAF!
They are quite smart, just a largish stand mount , regarding selling if we can get a pair into their room alongside their current set-up then they sell themselves.
Sometimes client can’t believe that an all in one system can out perform their expensive separates.
keith