Deutsche Grammophon on Analog Recording

[Robin L]

You are right and wrong. We CAN measure everything and digitization DOES NOT lose anything.

You are right that digital does not sound as good as classic vinyls. That’s because once the audio is digitized, humans have a hard time *not* choosing to adjust levels, add compression, or reduce noise. At that point, you are hearing the decisions of the person manipulating the recording.

The best thing to do if you have your own premium setup is to make your own recordings. You will see that you can capture all the nuances. Why digital isn’t mastered that way is a whole different questions.

Linn LP12 / Monster Sigma MC200 / Ittok LVII with Luxman LXV-OT10 owner

Most digital recordings of classical music use no compression or very little. All-digital (DDD) recordings do not use noise reduction save those instances where there is some ambient noise (like air conditioning) that needs to be reduced in level. A lot of the digital transfers of older analog recordings use various forms of noise reduction. Results can be good or bad depending on the skill of the engineer remastering those recordings. A lot of the DGG CD reissues of Herbert von Karajan's recordings from the 1970s have better balances than the LP originals. Warner Classics has done some remarkable work with classic recordings from the 1930s. DGGs "The Originals" series of CD reissues have been very good.

 

[GXAlan]

A lot of the digital transfers of older analog recordings use various forms of noise reduction. Results can be good or bad depending on the skill of the engineer remastering those recordings.

Agree 1000%. Just validating the OP’s subjective impressions.

I am a big fan of those original Telarc Soundstream digital recordings. The Denon recordings during the early PCM era are great too.

The beauty for analog fans is that it is very easy to make your own recordings to see that you like a specific analog playback chain and you can capture that and it’s experience with “bad” recordings that colors the experience.

I wouldn’t call bad digital a sign of bad engineering. Sometimes that’s what the artist wants and their duty and responsibility is to the client not to audiophiles. Likewise, as much as we hate dynamic range compression if this helps sell more streamed or more digital purchases or more discs then it makes more money.

It’s the smartphone vs. digital medium format comparison.

If I am given the choice between a free iPhone 15 Pro or Hasselblad X2D, I am going for the Hasselblad. If I am given the choice between $1000 worth of Apple stocks from 1990 or $1000 worth of Hasselblad stock, it’s Apple all the way.

 

[MRC01]

Most digital recordings of classical music use no compression or very little. All-digital (DDD) recordings do not use noise reduction save those instances where there is some ambient noise (like air conditioning) that needs to be reduced in level. A lot of the digital transfers of older analog recordings use various forms of noise reduction. Results can be good or bad depending on the skill of the engineer remastering those recordings. ...

I'm glad I read to the end before replying because you took the words out of my mouth. @The D. mentioned loudness wars, but classical music is largely outside the blast radius of that problem. In most classical music recordings, the processing used is much more light-handed than other genres, leading to more lifelike recordings. Both then (60 years ago) and now. Thank goodness for that.

In my post I was careful not to say that the old vinyls are better (whether subjectively or objectively) than digital versions. My point was to emphasize some of the sonic aspects that some of those old vinyls capture so well, which is why they are popular with collectors despite their audible shortcomings.

 

[MRC01]

... I am a big fan of those original Telarc Soundstream digital recordings. The Denon recordings during the early PCM era are great too. ...

Agreed, though the Telarcs tend to the dark/warm side of voicing, they are still very good for that mid-hall rather than close perspective. I'll add early Sony classical to the list, especially recordings made by Bud Graham.

 

[Robin L]

Agreed, though the Telarcs tend to the dark/warm side of voicing, they are still very good for that mid-hall rather than close perspective. I'll add early Sony classical to the list, especially recordings made by Bud Graham.

Played the Bud Graham/Tony Faulkner engineered recording of Mahler's 4th, Lorin Maazel/Vienna Philharmonic, Kathleen Battle soloist (from 1984) a few days ago. Amazing sound quality. Performance is more than good enough as well.

 

[Steven Holt]

You'll soon realize that that digital doesn't sound nearly as good as those vinyls

First, welcome to ASR! I hope that you joined with an open mind and are willing to learn. Your comment deserves reply. I have a turntable, and I have 300 - plus records. Once in a while, I will listen to a record for background, or for nosalgia's sake. But when I really want to listen, I mean really listen, I always use a digital source. When I listen to Miles Davis KIND OF BLUE on record, it sounds good. When I listen to it on CD, it can bring tears to my eyes. The clarity, the definition, the nuance -- there's just no comparision. It's very much like comparing a Polaroid snapshot to the Canon EOS series picture. Keep this in mind : technology always moves forward, never backward. If digital was not better than analog, they simply wouldn't make it. There would be no demand. Another way : is your TV from the '70's, or is it from the late 2000's? Now, why is that?

 

[danadam]

There was something like 'be kind to new members' thread ... can't help to find it ...

Yes, but a post that is 100% wrong has to be noted as such.

I kind of read Salt's response as a funny way of saying that there are better threads than "explain the vinyl renaissance" to send newcomers to .

 

[Robin L]

I kind of read Salt's response as a funny way of saying that there are better threads than "explain the vinyl renaissance" to send newcomers to .

Ha ha, no - there actually was one. Forgot what that thread was, didn't last long.

The "vinyl renaissance" thread devolved into the department of redundancy department thread.

 

[danadam]

Because the music needs to be digitized for Deezer or similar platform and will be listened to on a portable speaker.

Apparently music has been digitized, even for vinyl, since 1980 and earlier: Vinyl is digital. Get over it!

 

[MRC01]

Apparently music has been digitized, even for vinyl, since 1980 and earlier: Vinyl is digital. Get over it!
...

True, but only when pressed on vinyl does it have the expense and inconvenience that makes it so desirable!

 

[Robin L]

True, but only when pressed on vinyl does it have the expense and inconvenience that makes it so desirable!

Seriously, though; it's only the pre-bucket brigade LPs that fully capture pure tubular compression and other forms of analog distortion.

 

[MRC01]

Seriously, though; it's only the pre-bucket brigade LPs that fully capture pure tubular compression and other forms of analog distortion.

Perhaps, though I think the early Chesky reissues from the late 80s also did, as the liner notes claimed they used refurbished all-tube vintage equipment.

 

[SIY]

It's the only other record I recall with a big blank on it

The Case of the Three Sided Dream. But there's an Easter Egg on the blank side...

 

[Robin L]

Perhaps, though I think the early Chesky reissues from the late 80s also did, as the liner notes claimed they used refurbished all-tube vintage equipment.

Those got a lot of hype in high-end rags, but I recall that they were a lot spottier than justified by the price. Of course, the late 80s were not a good time for LPs, with the possible exception of Harmonia Mundi.

 

[MRC01]

Those got a lot of hype in high-end rags, but I recall that they were a lot spottier than justified by the price. Of course, the late 80s were not a good time for LPs, with the possible exception of Harmonia Mundi.

Mine were mostly good yet highly variable. The Moussorgsky was fantastic, one of the best sounding vintage LPs that I have ever heard. The Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2 was also excellent. A few, like the Respighi, sounded too bright and shrill. I don't know whether this variability was the master tapes, Chesky's reissue process, the LP pressings, or maybe something else.

 

[Robin L]

Mine were mostly good yet highly variable. The Moussorgsky was fantastic, one of the best sounding vintage LPs that I have ever heard. The Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto 2 was also excellent. A few, like the Respighi, sounded too bright and shrill. I don't know whether this variability was the master tapes, Chesky's reissue process, the LP pressings, or maybe something else.

I guess you're referring to Pictures at an Exhibition, Fritz Reiner, Chicago Symphony Orchestra? There were a number of original shaded dogs floating around Berkeley at the time, I got a couple. Those seemed marginally better save for the expected increase in surface noise and wear. There was also a German pressing of "Pictures" I encountered that, in spite of excellent surfaces, was sonically the worst of the three.

There were a lot of vintage pressings in used record stores in Berkeley and San Francisco in the late 80s as classical music lovers dumped their LPs for CDs. You could still easily find blue-backed London LPs for around $3 at the time. DGG "Tulip" pressings were a bit more expensive, but still weren't hard to find. The mercury Living Presence series was the hardest to find. Tower Records was unloading remaining LP stock of major league labels as fast as they could. Not to mention radio airchecks from Europe, like the Fonit Cetra series of Furtwängler recordings (including the "La Scala" Ring cycle.)

 

[MRC01]

I guess you're referring to Pictures at an Exhibition, Fritz Reiner, Chicago Symphony Orchestra? ...

It was Renee Leibowitz with the Royal Phil, recorded at Walthamstow Town Hall, April 1964. I linked to the exact pressing in Discogs.

 

[DSJR]

Apparently, in the 90s I think it was, DG had a go at delicately re-mixing some Karajan recordings. I gather he was adept at the mixing desk (maybe a bit too much?) and these re-do's added some venue reverb and gave the performances a little extra scale, which sounded lovely on the digital medium. I apologise, but I can't pick out any one recording as an example (it's not my genre either really).

 

[Robin L]

It was Renee Leibowitz with the Royal Phil, recorded at Walthamstow Town Hall, April 1964. I linked to the exact pressing in Discogs.

My bad.
Has that recording been reissued as a CD?

 

[Timcognito]

I rest my case.