Desk speakers (active or passive) up to ~1500€

[daftcombo]

One question related to convenience: Is it ok to hook the Neumanns up to a Master/Slave power strip to have them turn on automatically with the DAC? They don't seem to have standby functionality, and the on/off-switch is not that accessible it seems...

Yes, there is a delay between turning them on and having them actually on, around 5s IIRC.
So the DAC will starts before and the speakers after, and you'll avoid any pop.

 

[Buddelpudding]

So I increased the steady power consumption of the master by adding my Chromecast Audio

This is exactly my plan due to your recommendation elsewhere.

Yes, there is a delay between turning them on and having them actually on, around 5s IIRC.
So the DAC will starts before and the speakers after, and you'll avoid any pop.

ok, perfect!

 

[Buddelpudding]

What do we know about the quality of the internal amplification in the Neumanns?

 

[q3cpma]

That's it's a moot point unless someone can prove that an amplifier with a SINAD of 80 and one with 100 sound different after passing through a speaker that has something like 0.5-1% of THD by itself.
The consensus about Neumann is that they use STMicro TDA7973 in their class AB designs, and something supposedly in-house for the KH80DSP.

Here's a thread about the question: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../performance-of-amps-in-active-speakers.9519/

 

[napilopez]

Used is generally how I like to buy speakers, so I do not lose too much money when (not if ;-) ) I want to resell.
The good reviews aside, the LS50W did not seem like a great option to match with the RME DAC because of the internal AD-conversion which makes having a great DAC a bit pointless. Same holds for LSXs, I guess.


Still, thx for mentioning these, they weren't on my radar...


Yes, I had heard of these, but I agree with your opinion. They don't seem to get that much cheaper on the used market. And they look ugly without covers.


Yes yes yes, will do that. I can feel the desk resonating right now! Looking at Isoacoustics Iso 155 stands, which look promising. Or is there anything else to be recommended? Many of the ordinary studio monitor desk stands don't seem to provide much insulation.


How about this vs. KH120 with a sub added later? I wouldn't really mind their slightly bigger size (still quite small).

Any opinions (or better measurements) on the Dynaudio X14A?

Yeah, that's my bad - I looked at the back panel of the RME and thought it had an optical out, not in. That said I don't think the D/A conversion should really factor into matters of sound quality. Maybe a problem if you have plans for low latency uses, but certainly choosing a different speaker will make a bigger difference. Not saying the KEFs should be your choice, but it seems more of a philosophical problem than one of sound quality. And if you like the KEFs enough, you could sell the RME or use it for another set of speakers elsewhere in your home. No need if you can just use optical or USB in.

As for isolation, I've not seen any convincing evidence that the "isolating" part of the isoacoustics makes a meaningful improvement. That said, I like the Isoacoustics stuff because it's well made.

I also second what q3cpma said about internal amplification. It's not something it makes much sense to worry about.

 

[Buddelpudding]

Ok, thanks.
Lastly, how would I best integrate a subwoofer with the Neumanns? Would this require DSP, or does the Neumann ecosystem provide an analog method to high pass the main speakers?

 

[matt3421]

rca/xlr/trs split adapters, if the sub you want doesnt have passthrough

 

[flowjm]

Ok, thanks.
Lastly, how would I best integrate a subwoofer with the Neumanns? Would this require DSP, or does the Neumann ecosystem provide an analog method to high pass the main speakers?

You buy one of these:

https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-750-dsp

 

[Buddelpudding]

rca/xlr/trs split adapters, if the sub you want doesnt have passthrough

but this would not allow for high-passing the main speakers, correct?

You buy one of these:

https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-750-dsp

If I understand correctly, this digitizes ingoing analog signals to do the crossover business. Which is what i would like to avoid because of having a nice DAC, but maybe this is an unnecessary purism? I definitely like having the RME DAC for all of its features, so I do want to keep it, and if I do keep it, I would like to also profit from its very high quality DA-conversion...

 

[raistlin65]

That's not really the place to talk about subjective impressions like it changes reality, though. You can state all you want, but all I said was factual.

Especially the fact that I absolutely don't understand people on ASR who want to reward companies that are not honest with their customers by not providing any data.

Speakers are not DACs/amps.

I'm certain there is a large community consensus here that accuracy is what is important in DACs/amps as the goal is to achieve transparent reproduction of the audio. It makes it easy to talk about them and not bring subjective experience into such discussions.

With speakers, subjectivity is unavoidable as the curve of the frequency response is a factor in speaker preference. So yes. Speakers with a more linear response and lower distortion are technically more accurate. But that doesn't mean that someone would prefer them in a blind listening test over a speaker with a house curve and higher rates of distortion. That is the "reality" of speaker sound.

So to always insist that speakers with a very linear response are the best is not to take into account what a listener's preference is for sound, unless you are suggesting that the buyer use EQ to establish their preferred house curve.

 

[flowjm]

but this would not allow for high-passing the main speakers, correct?


If I understand correctly, this digitizes ingoing analog signals to do the crossover business. Which is what i would like to avoid because of having a nice DAC, but maybe this is an unnecessary purism? I definitely like having the RME DAC for all of its features, so I do want to keep it, and if I do keep it, I would like to also profit from its very high quality DA-conversion...

If you want to keep everything after the RME DAC purely analogue, then buy a pair of KH120s and one of these:

https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-805

 

[Willem]

I am surprised that these active speakers do not have digital inputs given that they - I suppose - convert the input to digital anyway to allow for dsp equalization and crossover in the digital domain. Am I misunderstanding something?

 

[matt3421]

but this would not allow for high-passing the main speakers, correct?

I have a HSU subwoofer with adjustable crossover down to 30hz. i measured the frequency response with a UMIK and REW and adjusted the crossover on the sub until the crossover range is flat. so a lack of a high pass filter shouldn't be a problem. its a lot cheaper than any sub neumann makes, as good as they may be.

 

[Buddelpudding]

a lack of a high pass filter shouldn't be a problem

Not a problem per se, but it takes away one possible advantage of using a subwoofer.

 

[napilopez]

Speakers are not DACs/amps.

I'm certain there is a large community consensus here that accuracy is what is important in DACs/amps as the goal is to achieve transparent reproduction of the audio. It makes it easy to talk about them and not bring subjective experience into such discussions.

With speakers, subjectivity is unavoidable as the curve of the frequency response is a factor in speaker preference. So yes. Speakers with a more linear response and lower distortion are technically more accurate. But that doesn't mean that someone would prefer them in a blind listening test over a speaker with a house curve and higher rates of distortion. That is the "reality" of speaker sound.

So to always insist that speakers with a very linear response are the best is not to take into account what a listener's preference is for sound, unless you are suggesting that the buyer use EQ to establish their preferred house curve.

While I agree with your premise in the sense that there is a degree of subjectivity to speakers, there is little evidence to suggest people have preference for different "house curves" as far as I'm aware. Meanwhile there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that flat-ish on axis and fairly smooth off axis performance is correlated with listener preference in blind tests.

What can be unclear is matters of directivity, where it will vary depending on the listening environment, use, and user.

That said, I do think some caution is necessary when declaring one speaker better than the other. The very best generalized model of speaker preference has an 86 percent chance of guessing the which speaker will be preferred in a blind test. That's amazing, but not perfect. And to get results that good, one needs a full suite of on and off-axis anechoic data, and one needs to actually put in the hard word to process that data, not just eyeball it and assume. So I do think subjective impressions hold some value in determining a speakers quality. In addition to frequency response.

 

[Willem]

Speakers are probably inevitably far from perfect as they are on the interface between the electrical and the mechanical. Hence users may have to choose which imperfections they find least objectionable. My vote is for electrostatics but I accept they have limitations.

 

[JIW]

If you are going to put the speakers on your desk, keep in mind that the separation of the drivers may become significant if you are too close to the speakers.

Neumann specifies a minimum listening distance of 75 cm for the KH120 and a recommended listening distance of 100-200 cm (page 3 of https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/7669/download).

Similarly for Genelec. The 8010 has a recommended minimum listening distance of 50 cm (page 2), while the 8020 (page 5) and 8030 (page 5) have a recommended minimum listening distance of 70 cm.

Thus, combining small speakers with a subwoofer may be superior to using larger speakers. In this case, the Genelec 8010 or 8020 in combination with either an 7040 or 7050 subwoofer may be superior to a pair of KH120.

Further, as mentioned, for optimal accuracy, the acoustic axis of the speaker should be pointed at the main listening position. Even on desk top stands, the speakers may be too low and while the Genelecs can be tilted up to 15 degrees (about 2.6 cm change in height for 10 cm change in distance), the Neumann cannot. Thus, I recommend you measure the typical height difference between your ears and the desk top. As both Genelec and Neumann specify the height of the acoustic axis of the speakers (half way between the centres of the drivers), this will give you enough information to choose adequate desk top stands.

Neumann make desk top stands for the KH120 (and KH80) but those are quite expensive. Similarly for Genelec.

 

[LTig]

What I do know is that a great many so-called high-tech speakers (that, presumably, measure well) cannot reproduce a male voice properly!

You obviously never auditioned any Neumann speaker. The intelligibility of human voices is outstanding.

 

[helloworld]

KH80 has DSP and flatter frequency response than the 120. If you plan to get a sub later, they would match well with the KH750, also with DSP, and the slightly less deep bass of the 80 will not matter.

Sorry if my question is too stupid, but does the dsp also do an AD conversion? The spec says it has 24-Bit 48 kHz signal processing.
Do I need to use good DAC with kh80dsp?

 

[LTig]

Neumann make desk top stands for the KH120 (and KH80) but those are quite expensive. Similarly for Genelec.

The Genelec 8020 can be mounted on microphone stands. There are models by K&M which are adjustable between 21 and 35 cm, others are higher or lower. Price around 35 € each.