desirable distortion

[nefilim]

I was reminded of this fascinating article by Bob Katz from the current conversation in the Schiit Yg review thread:

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-25-adventures-distortion

Thoughts?

 

[RayDunzl]

Musical instruments produce sine waves modified by harmonics.

Varying the relative levels of the harmonics is what the musician does when he changes the sound of a note.

If you want to do that yourself, I won't argue with it.

---

We vary the harmonic content of our voices.

Say A E I O U and you've covered a lot of ground.

 

[svart-hvitt]

It sounds like an interesting idea to have a box for distortions of different kinds. As long as trained ears are not fully convinced such a box can be replaced by DSP, it seems like a box may be the way to go.

What I don’t understand, however, is why you’d want this on the playback side. Why wouldn’t a trained engineer add this distortion to the recorded material?

 

[Krunok]

What I don’t understand, however, is why you’d want this on the playback side. Why wouldn’t a trained engineer add this distortion to the recorded material?

I can think of only one reason - he claims to like the way that tube preamp distorted the signal, so it was purely subjective argument, nothing more.

Please listen to this: ".. there was life, space around all of the instruments.. highs that went on forever, bass that was in the basement.. with the preamp in the system I was there, and without it it was drier.."

Now, while I'm certainly not sure if he would be able to recognise that preamp or not in a blind test, I would certainly like to try whatever he was on while listening to it.

 

[svart-hvitt]

I can think of only one reason - he claims to like the way that tube preamp distorted the signal, so it was purely subjective argument, nothing more.

Please listen to this: ".. there was life, space around all of the instruments.. highs that went on forever, bass that was in the basement.. with the preamp in the system I was there, and without it it was drier.."

Now, while I'm certainly not sure if he would be able to recognise that preamp or not in a blind test, I would certainly like to try whatever he was on while listening to it.

I think we should allow experienced people like Bob Katz to talk about their subjective findings when they report from a laborious audio project. Subjectivity is his trade as he’s on the «art side» of audio.

Needless to say, Mr. Katz knows about all the usual pitfalls of listening «tests».

 

[Krunok]

I think we should allow experienced people like Bob Katz to talk about their subjective findings when they report from a laborious audio project. Subjectivity is his trade as he’s on the «art side» of audio.

Needless to say, Mr. Katz knows about all the usual pitfalls of listening «tests».

Well, with all due respect to his previous work, but his words that I quoted I can only accept as a highly subjective opinion and nothing more as all subjective opinions have the same value to me.

I think we should try to judge his words without paying attention that it was he who said them. I mean, once again: " highs that went on forever.. bass that was in the basement..". I don't care if it was Mr. Katz who said that or the lady who cleans his lab but I refuse to believe that tube preamp can deepen the bas and I certainly would not like to have a preamp that will extend the duration of the high tones.

Btw, in a playback chain I personally consider the term "desirable distortion" to be an oxymoron as I would like to hear the recording as authentically as technically possible.

 

[Thomas savage]

Well, with all due respect to his previous work, but his words that I quoted I can only accept as a highly subjective opinion and nothing more as all subjetive opinions have the same value to me.

Please try to judge his words without paying attention that was he who told them. I mean, once again: " highs that went on forever.. bass that was in the basement..". I don't care if it was Mr. Katz who said that or the lady who cleans his lab but I refuse to believe that tube preamp can deepen the bas and I certainly would not like to have a preamp that will extend the duration of the high tones.

It is intresting how knowing the pre Amp is there changed his perception of what he heard. I always fancied putting a Center speaker in a stereo setup and have people say what they think while having that Center channel unconnected.

I’d bet you would get a lot of “ oh, the voice is so centred and the image so much more stable “ etc..

I certainly know with my tv setup I have synced the visual with the sound from my two JBL’s, the image is amazing as voices come directly from the mouths of the people on the screen the illusion holds even when I’m far outside the effective stereo zone. The sound never collapsing into one speaker.

Before these JBL’s i had a sound bar, when I first connected it it was terrible as the sound was obviously divorced from the picture... then after awhile Is was as one..., maybe the sound bar ‘ broke in’ lol

 

[Krunok]

It is intresting how knowing the pre Amp is there changed his perception of what he heard. I always fancied putting a Center speaker in a stereo setup and have people say what they think while having that Center channel unconnected.

I’d bet you would get a lot of “ oh, the voice is so centred and the image so much more stable “ etc..

I certainly know with my tv setup I have synced the visual with the sound from my two JBL’s, the image is amazing as voices come directly from the mouths of the people on the screen lol

I fully agree with you - it is extremely difficult to fight the placebo effect.

 

[svart-hvitt]

Well, with all due respect to his previous work, but his words that I quoted I can only accept as a highly subjective opinion and nothing more as all subjective opinions have the same value to me.

I think we should try to judge his words without paying attention that it was he who said them. I mean, once again: " highs that went on forever.. bass that was in the basement..". I don't care if it was Mr. Katz who said that or the lady who cleans his lab but I refuse to believe that tube preamp can deepen the bas and I certainly would not like to have a preamp that will extend the duration of the high tones.

Btw, in a playback chain I personally consider the term "desirable distortion" to be an oxymoron as I would like to hear the recording as authentically as technically possible.

Bob Katz is one of the best-known and most highly regarded mastering engineers in the USA. In his book, «Mastering audio: the art and the science», he describes seven ear-training exercises for improving your hearing acuity in the context of recording or mastering music.

To compare Mr. Katz with an untrained listener (cleaning lady) is unfair.

 

[Thomas savage]

I fully agree with you - it is extremely difficult to fight the placebo effect.

I’m fairy certain you could replace much of what audiophiles use for reply with cheaper ( but well engineered) kit and if they were not told they would have no clue just by listening to music .

Iv directly a/b’d wires by using two out puts from my preamp and got quite confused while flicking back and forth, there was no detectable difference.

Very enlightening, wish I’d got there before spending hideous amounts on crap.

 

[Thomas savage]

Bob Katz is one of the best-known and most highly regarded mastering engineers in the USA. In his book, «Mastering audio: the art and the science», he describes seven ear-training exercises for improving your hearing acuity in the context of recording or mastering music.

To compare Mr. Katz with an untrained listener (cleaning lady) is unfair.

His bias / visual associations will still effect him. He’s not superhuman.

 

[Krunok]

Bob Katz is one of the best-known and most highly regarded mastering engineers in the USA. In his book, «Mastering audio: the art and the science», he describes seven ear-training exercises for improving your hearing acuity in the context of recording or mastering music.

To compare Mr. Katz with an untrained listener (cleaning lady) is unfair.

Are you saying that you believe that tube pre amp somehow made the bass sound deeper and that it extended the duration of the high tones?
Even if it somehow managed to do so, are you saying that we are supposed to believe that is the good thing only because Mr. Katz made some really good mastering recordings in his career? Hmm..

As for his book and hearing excercises - he himself admitted that for some reason he had a change of heart from "the best pre amp is no pre amp" to "I really like that tube pre amp", but sorry, I'm not buying that.

 

[svart-hvitt]

His bias / visual associations will still effect him. He’s not superhuman.

I never claimed he’s superman.

My point is that the subjective evaluation of some people is more interesting than the subjective evaluation of others.

Having said that, this project is at best in its early stages. He has had only one other guy doing the same type of listening; his assistant.

Don’t forget that many research projects start out as «hunches» and «voices in the air» before more formal tests.

 

[Thomas savage]

I never claimed he’s superman.

My point is that the subjective evaluation of some people is more interesting than the subjective evaluation of others.

Having said that, this project is at best in its early stages. He has had only one other guy doing the same type of listening; his assistant.

Don’t forget that many research projects start out as «hunches» and «voices in the air» before more formal tests.

Tbh no ones subjective appraisal is of much worth to me but I’ve no issue with you finding it curious. I go directly to “ ah this is likely bollocks “ lol

There’s certainly mechanisms within us that ‘we’ have no direct control over that can do wonders and are currently beyond our understanding. I don’t feel this is one of those though ..

In the great scheme of things wrt to Audio what I think or feel is of bugger all significance

 

[Krunok]

My point is that the subjective evaluation of some people is more interesting than the subjective evaluation of others.

If you believe in the philosophy that things should be played exactly as they were recorded then nobodies subjective opinnion matters, what matters are only measurements that prove or disprove the fidelity of the reproduction.

If you don't believe in that philosophy than playback becomes like fashion - whatever looks or sounds beatifull to you, or Mr. Katz, is fine with me, but as i said, I'm not buying it for that reason.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I replied to the other thread before seeing this one or reading the article. I think the article is very good.

I think some 2nd and some 3rd harmonic are liked by many people. The 3rd should be lower than the 2nd at all times. It also needs to vary with level I believe for full effect. My opinion, not fully backed by more than listening to various gear, is the triode distortion profile happens to be nice to many people. You don't want any appreciable harmonics above the 3rd.

Let us suppose you are listening at an average level of 75 dbSPL. I think the circuit needs to be just barely clean at that point. Say THD, and IMD at .1 % roughly maybe even .5%. With 20 or 25 db of headroom above that I think you'll want it to rise to 2 or maybe even 3%. When this happens or something close to it you seem to get that warm, smooth, musical, 3D, spacious playback quality.

Now there are some very nicely done recordings on which you may find this colored and interesting, but not right. With many studio recordings or poorly balanced recordings the tastefully done coloring seems an obvious improvement.

Of course we are much better off doing this with DSP. Some of which is becoming more available as plug ins.

 

[Krunok]

.. When this happens or something close to it you seem to get that warm, smooth, musical, 3D, spacious playback quality.

Now there are some very nicely done recordings on which you may find this colored and interesting, but not right. With many studio recordings or poorly balanced recordings the tastefully done coloring seems an obvious improvement.

Of course we are much better off doing this with DSP.

Doing this where, during recording or at playback?

 

[Thomas savage]

I replied to the other thread before seeing this one or reading the article. I think the article is very good.

I think some 2nd and some 3rd harmonic are liked by many people. The 3rd should be lower than the 2nd at all times. It also needs to vary with level I believe for full effect. My opinion, not fully backed by more than listening to various gear, is the triode distortion profile happens to be nice to many people. You don't want any appreciable harmonics above the 3rd.

Let us suppose you are listening at an average level of 75 dbSPL. I think the circuit needs to be just barely clean at that point. Say THD, and IMD at .1 % roughly maybe even .5%. With 20 or 25 db of headroom above that I think you'll want it to rise to 2 or maybe even 3%. When this happens or something close to it you seem to get that warm, smooth, musical, 3D, spacious playback quality.

Now there are some very nicely done recordings on which you may find this colored and interesting, but not right. With many studio recordings or poorly balanced recordings the tastefully done coloring seems an obvious improvement.

Of course we are much better off doing this with DSP. Some of which is becoming more available as plug ins.

For me all the ‘funky ‘ should be the preserve of those in the artistic process at point of origin.

 

[svart-hvitt]

If you believe in the philosophy that things should be played exactly as they were recorded then nobodies subjective opinnion matters, what matters are only measurements that prove or disprove the fidelity of the reproduction.

If you don't believe in that philosophy than playback becomes like fashion - whatever looks or sounds beatifull to you, or Mr. Katz, is fine with me, but as i said, I'm not buying it for that reason.

I put my mouth where my money is: Genelec speakers are often criticised for being boring; this is from a 6moons review of my speakers:

«Never once did I catch myself fantasizing about this venerable Finnish make making the leap into my own listening room. Why? Because the Genelec sound (something of an oxymoron, admittedly) often struck me as being unremittingly focused. Despite the total absence of cabinet signature, iron-fisted bass control and a midband free of any additive blemish, the overall effect rarely seemed to conjure up anything quite as nebulous as listener involvement. But of course you could still justifiably argue they were simply doing the job they were intended for».
Source: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/genelec/1.html

So I am very much in the hifi camp, i.e. Ideally listening through the system and not to the system.

Still, I found the Katz article a bit intriguing. Maybe because it made me want to do the same listening exercise myself on my 8351s.

This is what made me curious:

«My Blender allows us to test this hypothesis and perhaps for the first time, quantify the amount that is needed».

But I also know that curiosity is what made us fall into sin...

 

[Krunok]

I put my mouth where my money is: Genelec speakers are often criticised for being boring; this is from a 6moons review of my speakers:

«Never once did I catch myself fantasizing about this venerable Finnish make making the leap into my own listening room. Why? Because the Genelec sound (something of an oxymoron, admittedly) often struck me as being unremittingly focused. Despite the total absence of cabinet signature, iron-fisted bass control and a midband free of any additive blemish, the overall effect rarely seemed to conjure up anything quite as nebulous as listener involvement. But of course you could still justifiably argue they were simply doing the job they were intended for».
Source: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/genelec/1.html

So I am very much in the hifi camp, i.e. Ideally listening through the system and not to the system.
.

TBH, I don't care much for the 6moon reviews as all they are offering is their subjective opinion.