Denon X4700H tuning on/off thump in pre-amp mode

[theseus]

My X4700H doesn't have any turning on/off thumps/pops in 11.1 channel amp assign mode with 5.1.4 plus TS setup. It's totally silent. This is my preset 1.

For preset 2, I have pre-amp amp assign mode with 5 floor speakers plus one Sub. I notice the tuning on/off thumps in this setup. It's no too loud. The thump is a quiet short pop but I 'd like to get rid of it if it's possible.

If the detailed setup matters: I use external amps for the 5 floor (LCR, SL, SR; I don't have surrounding back speakers) and the TS speakers plus one Sub. The X4700H's internal amps are used for the 4 in celling speakers.

Anyone has thumps/pops in pre-amp mode with the X4700H? Any suggestions?

Thank you in advance!

 

[peng]

My X4700H doesn't have any turning on/off thumps/pops in 11.1 channel amp assign mode with 5.1.4 plus TS setup. It's totally silent. This is my preset 1.

For preset 2, I have pre-amp amp assign mode with 5 floor speakers plus one Sub. I notice the tuning on/off thumps in this setup. It's no too loud. The thump is a quiet short pop but I 'd like to get rid of it if it's possible.

If the detailed setup matters: I use external amps for the 5 floor (LCR, SL, SR; I don't have surrounding back speakers) and the TS speakers plus one Sub. The X4700H's internal amps are used for the 4 in celling speakers.

Anyone has thumps/pops in pre-amp mode with the X4700H? Any suggestions?

Thank you in advance!

Did you turn on the Denon preamp fist, wait a couple seconds then turn on the power amp? If you turn on the power amp first then quiet pop, even louder pop occasionally would be normal. The turn off sequence would be the opposite. If you use triggers then it may not pop either, depending on the build in delay.

 

[theseus]

Thanks for the reply Peng.

When turning on I always have my X4700H on first and then the amps are on about 20 seconds later. For turning off, I'm not too sure which is off first because both the X4700H and my amps are off at about the same time. The thing puzzling me is the same on and off sequence in the 11.1 assign mode doesn't have pop. It's totally silent. I get the pop in the pre-amp mode only. And I'm reasonably sure the pre-amp mode pops are coming from the in-celling speakers that are powered by the X4700H's internal amps. My guess is if I get all the internal amp speaker terminal disconnected the pop will be gone. I know this doesn't make any sense as all the X4700H's internal amps are disconnected from the power rail.

Again my guess is the X4700H's internal amps are producing some turning on/off pops in the pre-amp mode, in the pre-amp mode only! Ideally one should not need to connect any speakers to the internal amps in pre-amp mode. My problem is I don't have another 4 amps for the in-celling speakers and I'd like to take the advantage of the pre-amp higher SQ for a 5.1 music listening setup.

Having been thinking a solution to resolve the pre-amp pop for 2 weeks and going nowhere. So hope others might help. I may need to get used to the pop or go try to config my 5.1 music listening with 5.1 amp assign mode. I know the pre-amp SQ improvement may not be audible but I *feel* I can hear the difference .

 

[peng]

The thing puzzling me is the same on and off sequence in the 11.1 assign mode doesn't have pop. It's totally silent. I get the pop in the pre-amp mode only. And I'm reasonably sure the pre-amp mode pops are coming from the in-celling speakers that are powered by the X4700H's internal amps. My guess is if I get all the internal amp speaker terminal disconnected the pop will be gone. I know this doesn't make any sense as all the X4700H's internal amps are disconnected from the power rail.

If the in-ceiling speakers are powered by the X4700H's internal amps then how can you use preamp mode? In preamp mode the internal power amps will be disconnected from the preamp inputs so there should be no sound coming out of them at all.

Again my guess is the X4700H's internal amps are producing some turning on/off pops in the pre-amp mode, in the pre-amp mode only! Ideally one should not need to connect any speakers to the internal amps in pre-amp mode. My problem is I don't have another 4 amps for the in-celling speakers and I'd like to take the advantage of the pre-amp higher SQ for a 5.1 music listening setup.

Again, in preamp mode, not only the internal amps should not "pop", it will have no power to drive the connected speakers so whether you disconnect those in ceiling speakers or not should make no difference.

 

[theseus]

If the in-ceiling speakers are powered by the X4700H's internal amps then how can you use preamp mode?

The in-ceiling speakers are connected to the X4700H's internal amps but they are only used for the preset 1 which is in amp assign 11.1 Ch mode. My preset 2 is in pre-amp assign mode and it's only configured to use the 5 floor speakers. The in-ceiling speakers are not used for preset 2 although they are still connected to the internal amps' speaker terminals. I can do it this way, can't I?

In other words, I don't want/need/use the in-ceiling speakers in the preset 2 pre-amp mode. True, they are still connected. And I believe this is why I get turning on/off pops as I have unplugged power to my external amps and I still hear pops. This leads me to feel the pops would be gone if the in-celling speakers are disconnected. The only reason that I haven't actually disconnect them to confirm is because there are about 80 wires inter connections and they are in a close back cabinet.

I know this is strange and makes no sense: there is no pop in my preset 1 setting which the in-ceiling speakers are powered by the internal amps but there are pops in my preset 2 that is in pre-amp mode so although the in-ceiling speakers are connected to the internal amps but the amps are disconnected from power. If there is a pop I'd expected it should be other way around between my preset 1 and 2.

 

[peng]

The in-ceiling speakers are connected to the X4700H's internal amps but they are only used for the preset 1 which is in amp assign 11.1 Ch mode. My preset 2 is in pre-amp assign mode and it's only configured to use the 5 floor speakers. The in-ceiling speakers are not used for preset 2 although they are still connected to the internal amps' speaker terminals. I can do it this way, can't I?

In other words, I don't want/need/use the in-ceiling speakers in the preset 2 pre-amp mode. True, they are still connected. And I believe this is why I get turning on/off pops as I have unplugged power to my external amps and I still hear pops. This leads me to feel the pops would be gone if the in-celling speakers are disconnected. The only reason that I haven't actually disconnect them to confirm is because there are about 80 wires inter connections and they are in a close back cabinet.

I know this is strange and makes no sense: there is no pop in my preset 1 setting which the in-ceiling speakers are powered by the internal amps but there are pops in my preset 2 that is in pre-amp mode so although the in-ceiling speakers are connected to the internal amps but the amps are disconnected from power. If there is a pop I'd expected it should be other way around between my preset 1 and 2.

Thank you for clarifying the preset 1 and 2 part. You are right though, and this makes no sense at all, so I think there is something obvious that is hidden..

By the way, in pre-amp mode the internal amps are not disconnected from power, they are all still powered but their inputs will be disconnected from the preamp outputs and it was reported that ECO would not be in effect when in preamp mode.

 

[theseus]

By the way, in pre-amp mode the internal amps are not disconnected from power, they are all still powered but their inputs will be disconnected from the preamp outputs and it was reported that ECO would not be in effect when in preamp mode.

I must remembered wrong! So in pre-amp mode, power is still connected to the internal amps. Only the audio signals to the amps are disconnected?

If this is the case, then when configuring with a 5.1 setup, which doesn't have audio signals to the in-ceiling amps, effectively there will be no actual difference between pre-amp and any other modes in my preset 2 setup? Guess I can just use 11.1 Ch mode with height speakers setting to None in my preset 2 and be done with the pops as they won't happen in the 11.1 Ch mode.

A little bit related to the pre-amp having power or signal disconnected, I always have a question. If there is no speaker connected to the internal amps, which means the amps get no load therefore they don't draw much currency from the power supply, should 11.1 Ch and pre-amp modes performance the same with SINAD measurement? If I don't connect speakers to some of the internal amps, those channels are effectively in pre-amp mode even if the assign mode is not in pre-amp, No?

BTW, I can confirm ECO auto is not in effect because when increasing volume across 50 I can hear a relay click in the 11.1 Ch mode but no click in the pre-amp mode. Is the ECO on or off in pre-amp mode that I don't know.

 

[peng]

I must remembered wrong! So in pre-amp mode, power is still connected to the internal amps. Only the audio signals to the amps are disconnected?

If this is the case, then when configuring with a 5.1 setup, which doesn't have audio signals to the in-ceiling amps, effectively there will be no actual difference between pre-amp and any other modes in my preset 2 setup? Guess I can just use 11.1 Ch mode with height speakers setting to None in my preset 2 and be done with the pops as they won't happen in the 11.1 Ch mode.

A little bit related to the pre-amp having power or signal disconnected, I always have a question. If there is no speaker connected to the internal amps, which means the amps get no load therefore they don't draw much currency from the power supply, should 11.1 Ch and pre-amp modes performance the same with SINAD measurement? If I don't connect speakers to some of the internal amps, those channels are effectively in pre-amp mode even if the assign mode is not in pre-amp, No?

BTW, I can confirm ECO auto is not in effect because when increasing volume across 50 I can hear a relay click in the 11.1 Ch mode but no click in the pre-amp mode. Is the ECO on or off in pre-amp mode that I don't know.

When not in preamp mode, you can only disconnect the signal line if you assign the amplifier channel to pre out, and except for the A110 and X8500H, you can only assign the front left and right channels to pre out.

Not connecting speakers will not prevent the amp from clipping. If the input signal and the volume are high enough, the power amp output voltage will clip.

 

[abdo123]

Stupid remark but did you contact Denon support yet?

 

[theseus]

Stupid remark but did you contact Denon support yet?

No. I probably should give that a try.

 

[theseus]

When not in preamp mode, you can only disconnect the signal line if you assign the amplifier channel to pre out, and except for the A110 and X8500H, you can only assign the front left and right channels to pre out.

Understand that. What I was trying to say is if I configuring None to the height speakers in a no pre-amp mode, will that be effectively 'disconnecting' the signal to those in-ceiling speakers' internal amps? Or in other words, are those height speakers effectively being put in pre-amp mode although the amp assign mode is not?

Not connecting speakers will not prevent the amp from clipping. If the input signal and the volume are high enough, the power amp output voltage will clip.

But as there are no speakers connected for my LCR, SL, and SR in my preset 2, those 5 internal amps clip or not is not my concern, right? I also don't believe an internal amp clip will impact that channel's pre out when there is no speaker connected. In my preset 2 the height or ceiling speakers are connected but I set them to 'None' so their amps won't get any signal to make them clip. All in all I'm having a feeling that I may perhaps to put my preset 2 config in 11.1 Ch mode without suffering SQ degrading from pre-amp mode. Sure, I can be wrong here.

Sorry for deviate from my original pop question but I don't see that can be resolved other than switching to some no pre-amp mode. I'm thinking to contact Denon support as @abdo123 suggested but I'm not holding my breath to that.

 

[theseus]

I got an Onkyo TX-NR801 on CL really cheap. Using the 801's 4 channels of its 7 amps with multi ch in and pure audio mode for my 4 in-ceiling speakers there is no more turning on/off pop .

 

[Scubaduderon]

My X4700H doesn't have any turning on/off thumps/pops in 11.1 channel amp assign mode with 5.1.4 plus TS setup. It's totally silent. This is my preset 1.

For preset 2, I have pre-amp amp assign mode with 5 floor speakers plus one Sub. I notice the tuning on/off thumps in this setup. It's no too loud. The thump is a quiet short pop but I 'd like to get rid of it if it's possible.

If the detailed setup matters: I use external amps for the 5 floor (LCR, SL, SR; I don't have surrounding back speakers) and the TS speakers plus one Sub. The X4700H's internal amps are used for the 4 in celling speakers.

Anyone has thumps/pops in pre-amp mode with the X4700H? Any suggestions?

Thank you in advance!

Hello, my x4700h has just died completely today. The weird thing is, it worked fairly well. The setup menu worked sporadically through the return ARC, but beyond that it worked fine, providing good sound through all the channels I had wired, be they direct or preamp.

I used it in a mixed mode, as an amp for the center and surrounds, and as a preamp for the front LR and rear LR. For a few days I had a loud thumping noise and it would go into protection mode, fast blink. I attempted to localize the problem by only using the center channel only and physically disconnecting everything else, but it still thumps and shuts down. Finally I disconnected the center and it still shuts down. I had a small fan pulling heat from the top for about the last year, but this didn't help in the long run. Now I get to deal with warranty repairs. Any suggestions on how to get this done smoothly would be greatly appreciated...

 

[peng]

Understand that. What I was trying to say is if I configuring None to the height speakers in a no pre-amp mode, will that be effectively 'disconnecting' the signal to those in-ceiling speakers' internal amps? Or in other words, are those height speakers effectively being put in pre-amp mode although the amp assign mode is not?

I would think that is a moot point because if you configure the height speakers to "none" then pre-amp mode or not, there will be no pre out signal from those channels anyway right?

But as there are no speakers connected for my LCR, SL, and SR in my preset 2, those 5 internal amps clip or not is not my concern, right? I also don't believe an internal amp clip will impact that channel's pre out when there is no speaker connected. In my preset 2 the height or ceiling speakers are connected but I set them to 'None' so their amps won't get any signal to make them clip. All in all I'm having a feeling that I may perhaps to put my preset 2 config in 11.1 Ch mode without suffering SQ degrading from pre-amp mode. Sure, I can be wrong here.

Please take a note of the definition, such as Wiki's:

Clipping (audio) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Clipping is a form of waveform distortion that occurs when an amplifier is overdriven and attempts to deliver an output voltage or current beyond its maximum capability. Driving an amplifier into clipping may cause it to output power in excess of its power rating.

So whether you have speakers connected to the power amp outputs or not, as long as they are connected to the pre outs, those power amp channels will clip when the pre outs are over driven to the point they could not reach the level in accordance with the input signals. That point, by definition, would be the clipping point.

Sorry for deviate from my original pop question but I don't see that can be resolved other than switching to some no pre-amp mode. I'm thinking to contact Denon support as @abdo123 suggested but I'm not holding my breath to that.

As I mentioned before, as long as you turn the pre amp (the AVR in this case) on first (reverse order for powering off) before you switch the power amp on, any popping noise should be very minimal and not an issue. If you are still getting loud "pop" or "thump" on switching regardless of the switching sequence, then as others suggested, you should contact Denon about the issue and see if they have any suggestions.

 

[Andysu]

i was going to do video but it is so faint its a tiny i guess can be called "click sound" but not a "thumping sound" is all i can hear when switching on/off Denon AVC-X8500H and it too is running as pre-amp only .