Denon x3800h vs x4800h for sound?

[delta76]

Thanks for the reply. That AVforum poster probably used AI!? not sure. Good to know the 3800 is as good. I still have 3 questions:

1) The monolithic design is vague to me, no advantage of the 4800?
2) AL32 processing what the x3800 does not seem have no "issue"?
3) Lastly, I was also referring to Amirs SINAD processing graph, where the x3800h is in the poor category and the x4800h in the middle...
View attachment 494597

You will most certainly be unable to hear difference between a 87dB and 97dB DAC. Amir rates those by his expectation of clean DAC, and yes higher SINAD is better, but in most cases they will be just fine. Unless you have something clearly broken.

As I said x4800h is nicer in some aspects. One more input. A bit higher amp power. Made in Japan. Etc. Etc. So if you have €1600 to spend, yes. But don't expect any sonic difference between those two in a blind test. Even with the whole home theatre set up where features can make a difference, they will be performing pretty much the same.

 

[popej]

Yes if people push AI back all the time, they will learn and improve.

Or you will create a troll.

 

[90sNintendoKid]

I wonder what AI's opinion on SINAD vs incremental cost is?

I would say pretty good.

Spoiler: Claude Research

Denon X3800H vs X4800H: Objective Measurements Show Inaudible Difference​

The $840 price premium for the Denon AVR-X4800H over the X3800H buys roughly 8 dB better SINAD—a difference that falls squarely within the range where psychoacoustic research confirms humans cannot detect distortion or noise. Both receivers measure far above the 60-80 dB SINAD threshold where distortion becomes audible, making the sonic difference between them imperceptible under real-world listening conditions. The X4800H's advantages lie in build quality, power output, and secondary features rather than audible sound improvement.

SINAD measurements reveal measurable but inaudible gap​

Audio Science Review (ASR) has tested both receivers, providing the most authoritative objective measurements available. The X4800H achieves approximately 95 dB SINAD at 2V output in preamp mode via HDMI input. The X3800H measures between 87-95 dB SINAD depending on test conditions, with ASR reporting peak performance around 95 dB at optimal ~1.1V output levels but reduced performance at higher output voltages.
Both receivers use Texas Instruments PCM5102A DACs—a chip with a typical SINAD specification of 93 dB—replacing the superior AKM AK4458 DACs found in previous-generation models (the X3700H achieved 101 dB SINAD). This DAC substitution, necessitated by the 2020 AKM factory fire and supply chain disruptions, explains the regression from earlier models.

Model	SINAD (dB)	THD+N	Source
AVR-X4800H	~95	0.0016-0.0035%	ASR, HomeTheaterHiFi
AVR-X3800H	~87-95	0.003-0.004%	ASR
AVR-X3700H (reference)	~101	~0.001%	ASR

HomeTheaterHiFi's independent measurements of the X4800H using QuantAsylum QA401 and Lynx E22 equipment corroborated ASR's findings, measuring 0.0035% THD+N at 1 kHz (16-bit/44.1kHz) and an impressive 110.5 dB SNR (A-weighted) through the digital path—exceeding Denon's published 102 dB specification.

The science of audibility makes the SINAD gap irrelevant​

Extensive psychoacoustic research establishes clear thresholds for distortion audibility. For SINAD, the practical transparency threshold is 75-80 dB for most listeners with music material, with even the "strict" threshold used by measurement enthusiasts set at 85-90 dB. Both Denon receivers exceed these thresholds comfortably.
The key audibility thresholds, established through AES research and confirmed by experts like Amir at ASR, break down as follows:

• 0.1% THD (60 dB SINAD): Threshold where distortion becomes potentially audible with pure test tones
• 75-80 dB SINAD: Practical transparency for real music listening
• 85-90 dB SINAD: "Lenient" strict transparency threshold
• 120 dB SINAD: Theoretical "absolute transparency" (0.0001% THD+N)

With music, masking effects dramatically raise detection thresholds. Axiom Audio research found listeners accepted 100% distortion at 40 Hz before complaining, and 1% distortion was only audible above 8,000 Hz due to masking. The X3800H's 0.004% and X4800H's 0.0016% THD+N fall orders of magnitude below audibility regardless of frequency.
ASR forum consensus confirms this directly: "The difference in SINAD is not audible" between these models. Gene at Audioholics advises listeners to "not chase SINAD," emphasizing that differences between 90 dB and 120 dB SINAD produce no perceptible sonic benefit.

Price premium buys build quality and features, not sound​

Current street pricing positions the X3800H at $1,459 and X4800H at $2,299—an $840 (58%) premium. Refurbished units from Accessories4Less drop the gap to approximately $625 ($975 vs $1,600).

Pricing Tier	X3800H	X4800H	Difference
MSRP	$1,799	$2,799	$1,000
Street Price	$1,459	$2,299	$840
Refurbished	~$975	~$1,600	~$625

The X4800H's tangible advantages for that premium include:

• Power output: 125W vs 105W per channel (8Ω, 20Hz-20kHz)—roughly 0.8 dB louder at maximum output
• Lower rated THD: 0.05% vs 0.08%
• DTS:X Pro support: Extended object-based audio capabilities
• Zone 3 capability: Additional multi-room audio zone
• Additional HDMI input: 7 vs 6 ports
• Japan manufacturing: Versus Malaysia for the X3800H
• Premium construction: Aluminum front panel, higher-grade capacitors, monolithic amplifier design
• Advanced processing: D.D.S.C. HD Digital 32-bit, Clock Jitter Reducer, AL32 Processing Multichannel

Both models share identical Audyssey MultEQ XT32 room correction, the same Griffin Lite XP DSP processor, identical surround format support (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, Auro 3D, IMAX Enhanced), and full HDMI 2.1 capability with 8K/60Hz and 4K/120Hz passthrough.

The system context matters more than receiver measurements​

Speaker distortion typically exceeds 0.5% THD above 200 Hz—roughly 100 times higher than either receiver's measured distortion. The weakest link in any audio chain dominates the audible result, and speakers represent that link by a wide margin. Electronic distortion from either Denon receiver falls far below speaker distortion and well below room ambient noise levels (typically 25-40 dB), which themselves mask low-level artifacts.
The X4800H's Clock Jitter Reducer provides theoretical benefits for digital source cleanliness, though HomeTheaterHiFi's David Rich noted both receivers perform well in jitter testing, with "most jitter just below the limits of the Julian Dunn J-Test."

Conclusion​

For listeners seeking objective performance justification, the measurement data provides none. The 8 dB SINAD difference yields zero audible benefit—both receivers operate in a regime where distortion and noise are inaudible with any real-world content. The X4800H earns its premium through build quality (Japan manufacturing, metal construction, superior capacitors), the meaningful 20W per channel power increase for demanding speakers, and convenience features like Zone 3 and the extra HDMI port.
The X3800H represents superior value for the measurement-focused buyer: identical DAC technology, same DSP platform, same room correction, and imperceptibly similar sound quality at $840 less. The X4800H makes sense only if its specific feature additions—DTS:X Pro, Zone 3, or the build quality confidence of Japanese manufacturing—justify the cost for your particular use case.

 

[delta76]

I would say pretty good.

Spoiler: Claude Research

Denon X3800H vs X4800H: Objective Measurements Show Inaudible Difference​

The $840 price premium for the Denon AVR-X4800H over the X3800H buys roughly 8 dB better SINAD—a difference that falls squarely within the range where psychoacoustic research confirms humans cannot detect distortion or noise. Both receivers measure far above the 60-80 dB SINAD threshold where distortion becomes audible, making the sonic difference between them imperceptible under real-world listening conditions. The X4800H's advantages lie in build quality, power output, and secondary features rather than audible sound improvement.

SINAD measurements reveal measurable but inaudible gap​

Audio Science Review (ASR) has tested both receivers, providing the most authoritative objective measurements available. The X4800H achieves approximately 95 dB SINAD at 2V output in preamp mode via HDMI input. The X3800H measures between 87-95 dB SINAD depending on test conditions, with ASR reporting peak performance around 95 dB at optimal ~1.1V output levels but reduced performance at higher output voltages.
Both receivers use Texas Instruments PCM5102A DACs—a chip with a typical SINAD specification of 93 dB—replacing the superior AKM AK4458 DACs found in previous-generation models (the X3700H achieved 101 dB SINAD). This DAC substitution, necessitated by the 2020 AKM factory fire and supply chain disruptions, explains the regression from earlier models.

Model	SINAD (dB)	THD+N	Source
AVR-X4800H	~95	0.0016-0.0035%	ASR, HomeTheaterHiFi
AVR-X3800H	~87-95	0.003-0.004%	ASR
AVR-X3700H (reference)	~101	~0.001%	ASR

HomeTheaterHiFi's independent measurements of the X4800H using QuantAsylum QA401 and Lynx E22 equipment corroborated ASR's findings, measuring 0.0035% THD+N at 1 kHz (16-bit/44.1kHz) and an impressive 110.5 dB SNR (A-weighted) through the digital path—exceeding Denon's published 102 dB specification.

The science of audibility makes the SINAD gap irrelevant​

Extensive psychoacoustic research establishes clear thresholds for distortion audibility. For SINAD, the practical transparency threshold is 75-80 dB for most listeners with music material, with even the "strict" threshold used by measurement enthusiasts set at 85-90 dB. Both Denon receivers exceed these thresholds comfortably.
The key audibility thresholds, established through AES research and confirmed by experts like Amir at ASR, break down as follows:

• 0.1% THD (60 dB SINAD): Threshold where distortion becomes potentially audible with pure test tones
• 75-80 dB SINAD: Practical transparency for real music listening
• 85-90 dB SINAD: "Lenient" strict transparency threshold
• 120 dB SINAD: Theoretical "absolute transparency" (0.0001% THD+N)

With music, masking effects dramatically raise detection thresholds. Axiom Audio research found listeners accepted 100% distortion at 40 Hz before complaining, and 1% distortion was only audible above 8,000 Hz due to masking. The X3800H's 0.004% and X4800H's 0.0016% THD+N fall orders of magnitude below audibility regardless of frequency.
ASR forum consensus confirms this directly: "The difference in SINAD is not audible" between these models. Gene at Audioholics advises listeners to "not chase SINAD," emphasizing that differences between 90 dB and 120 dB SINAD produce no perceptible sonic benefit.

Price premium buys build quality and features, not sound​

Current street pricing positions the X3800H at $1,459 and X4800H at $2,299—an $840 (58%) premium. Refurbished units from Accessories4Less drop the gap to approximately $625 ($975 vs $1,600).

Pricing Tier	X3800H	X4800H	Difference
MSRP	$1,799	$2,799	$1,000
Street Price	$1,459	$2,299	$840
Refurbished	~$975	~$1,600	~$625

The X4800H's tangible advantages for that premium include:

• Power output: 125W vs 105W per channel (8Ω, 20Hz-20kHz)—roughly 0.8 dB louder at maximum output
• Lower rated THD: 0.05% vs 0.08%
• DTS:X Pro support: Extended object-based audio capabilities
• Zone 3 capability: Additional multi-room audio zone
• Additional HDMI input: 7 vs 6 ports
• Japan manufacturing: Versus Malaysia for the X3800H
• Premium construction: Aluminum front panel, higher-grade capacitors, monolithic amplifier design
• Advanced processing: D.D.S.C. HD Digital 32-bit, Clock Jitter Reducer, AL32 Processing Multichannel

Both models share identical Audyssey MultEQ XT32 room correction, the same Griffin Lite XP DSP processor, identical surround format support (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, Auro 3D, IMAX Enhanced), and full HDMI 2.1 capability with 8K/60Hz and 4K/120Hz passthrough.

The system context matters more than receiver measurements​

Speaker distortion typically exceeds 0.5% THD above 200 Hz—roughly 100 times higher than either receiver's measured distortion. The weakest link in any audio chain dominates the audible result, and speakers represent that link by a wide margin. Electronic distortion from either Denon receiver falls far below speaker distortion and well below room ambient noise levels (typically 25-40 dB), which themselves mask low-level artifacts.
The X4800H's Clock Jitter Reducer provides theoretical benefits for digital source cleanliness, though HomeTheaterHiFi's David Rich noted both receivers perform well in jitter testing, with "most jitter just below the limits of the Julian Dunn J-Test."

Conclusion​

For listeners seeking objective performance justification, the measurement data provides none. The 8 dB SINAD difference yields zero audible benefit—both receivers operate in a regime where distortion and noise are inaudible with any real-world content. The X4800H earns its premium through build quality (Japan manufacturing, metal construction, superior capacitors), the meaningful 20W per channel power increase for demanding speakers, and convenience features like Zone 3 and the extra HDMI port.
The X3800H represents superior value for the measurement-focused buyer: identical DAC technology, same DSP platform, same room correction, and imperceptibly similar sound quality at $840 less. The X4800H makes sense only if its specific feature additions—DTS:X Pro, Zone 3, or the build quality confidence of Japanese manufacturing—justify the cost for your particular use case.

Yes they are very good if you use them right. In this case, ask them to give an objective comparison on measurements of the two and that will show you a lot of useful information in 30s, without manually searching and comparing.

But if you ask for subjective comparison then you will get all kind of bs because they don't listen, they read. And guess where they read from?

 

[mmares056]

Sorry to reopen this thread. Many people say there will be no audible difference between these two AVRs, but others have pointed out that in Amir’s SINAD measurements the X4800H scored better. He also recommended the X4800H instead of the X3800H.

Since my one week old X3800H is showing some HDMI issues, I can exchange it for an open box X4800H for an additional 380 euro.

Assuming both units work as intended, would the 380 euro be a good investment for music and home theater? I am using Fosi V3 mono amps for the front channels and a 5.1 setup.

Someone on AVS Forum mentioned the following:

Here are the key reasons to pick the X4800H over the X3800H:

1. Better Audio Performance

• More Powerful Amplification: The X4800Hdelivers 125W per channel (8Ω, 2-ch driven)versus 105W per channel in the X3800H, providing more headroom for demanding speakers.
• Upgraded Internal Components: The X4800H has higher-quality capacitors and power supplies, leading to better overall sound clarity and dynamics.

2. Build Quality and Chassis Design

• The X4800H uses a monolithic amplifier design, which typically results in better power efficiency and stability.
• Heavier and better-built chassis for reduced vibrations and enhanced durability.

3. Enhanced Processing and DACs

• The X4800H features better 32-bit DACs (Digital-to-Analog Converters), contributing to improved audio fidelity, especially for Hi-Res music and surround sound processing.

4. More Multizone and Custom Installation Features

• The X4800H has an extra HDMI output (3 total vs. 2 on the X3800H), which is useful for multi-zone setups.
• More advanced custom integration support for home automation systems.

5. IMAX Enhanced Certification

• The X4800H has IMAX Enhanced support, which is missing from the X3800H. This can provide a better movie-watching experience with supported content.

6. Slightly Better Preamp Mode

• While both models support Preamp Mode, the X4800H has better power supply components, potentially making it a stronger choice for users who plan to use external amplifiers.

I made the jump from a X3600H to the X3800H and I'm using it as a Preamplifier the same I was happily using the X3600. I did my first ART project today and I couldn't be happier with the results. I will be experimenting with different speaker groups and support levels for a few days. It's just hard to get the house to myself right now.

 

[Chrispy]

If I decide to get a power amp for the mains to relieve the Denon for the other channels, I must get a power amp with at least 100w per channel, right? Any recommendation on a decent but affordable power amp like that?

Tiago

You already have that level of power in the avrs. If going external amps I would aim at much higher power....if you even need it. Remember, a doubling of power only represents a 3dB level difference.

ps The difference won't be any particular audible sound between these avrs outside of a slight power difference (and it is very slight)

 

[Chromatischism]

Sorry to reopen this thread. Many people say there will be no audible difference between these two AVRs, but others have pointed out that in Amir’s SINAD measurements the X4800H scored better. He also recommended the X4800H instead of the X3800H.

Since my one week old X3800H is showing some HDMI issues, I can exchange it for an open box X4800H for an additional 380 euro.

Assuming both units work as intended, would the 380 euro be a good investment for music and home theater? I am using Fosi V3 mono amps for the front channels and a 5.1 setup.

Someone on AVS Forum mentioned the following:

Also the 2-line display that's easier to read, better remote, IMAX Enhanced, Auromatic upmixing, and it used to be that you get a front panel HDMI, but not anymore.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

In theory yes but measurements didn't seem to show any difference.

I think that is mostly marketing hype, like Marantz claims of their so called musical and warm sound, try finding someone who claimed the x4800h sounded better than the x3800h and others, including Marantz that don't have AL32 and DDSC you won't find one, if you do, you will find that they just claimed, and never did it "blind" or equal level match.. IMO this is a non issue.


I posted my comments on this many time, you can do a search if yo are interested, basically, I won't draw a conclusion based one tests that to me, the 12 dB lower in SINAD might have due to something in the test that was done differently. If you look at the measurements of the X3500H, X3600H, X3700H, X4700H, X6700H, you don't see such 12 dB gap, so think about that... Now, if it is true that the 3800 did 12 dB worse, it still wouldn't matter in terms of audible sound quality difference. Remember the Marantz AV7705, SR 6014, 7015, AV8805, also measured on ASR and they didn't do better than the x3800h, in fact mostly managed only about 75 to 76 dB SINAD in that same test, yet how often you hear/see their owners claiming they sounded not as good as Denon's that measured 95 to 100 dB SINAD? So again, logically speaking I have to say this is also a non issue, just forum talks for fun. If the cost difference is not significant (it is in Canada and USA) as some reported a difference of about 300 to 350 Euro, then I would likely go with the X4800H, for the better measured performance, flipped down display, 1 additional HDMI input, whether it would sound "Better" or not. As to made in Japan vs Vietnam, I don't think that is a factor, in fact for whatever reason(s), it seems that they has been more trouble report from the x4800H owners that X3800H owners on ASR.

Many thanks for your posts and thorough explanation per claim! I'm really glad I spend the extra 380 euro on separate AMPs and in the future many DIRAC instead of the x4800h. Btw the difference according to Amirs measurements are only 8db and not 12db.

I agree with previous comments. I decided to stop SINAD chasing and I have just bought a Denon 3800H and I use external amplification and along with Dirac ART and Magic Beans True Target, I am delighted with the sound. I have made objective (measured in REW) improvements to my system using Dirac ART + Magic Beans + 4 subwoofers and using speakers with good directivity (Kef Q350 for the L/R and Kef Q150 for surrounds, also tried Polk XT20s which I also thought were great and have good directivity ) which I believe makes more of a difference than the SINAD difference between the 3800H and 4800H. The only reason I would go for the 6800H is for 6 height channels and I'm glad I didn't because I have been underwhelmed by Atmos in general and I don't have room for side surrounds and middle height channels.

I have observed (with REW measurements) and experienced and noticed that I get better sound when I use speakers, along with EQ, that have good directivity and I first heard this from @joentell.

Good to know! And funny I'm in a similar position atm.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

There's no audible difference between the two. What's the warranty on the open box unit? If it's less than the 3 year factory warranty from Denon, I would choose the 3800 for sure.

Yeah the warranty was the same.. But again, Im very glad I didn't flush 380 down the drain just for a metal front plate and some additional connections I don't use

 

[peng]

Many thanks for your posts and thorough explanation per claim! I'm really glad I spend the extra 380 euro on separate AMPs and in the future many DIRAC instead of the x4800h. Btw the difference according to Amirs measurements are only 8db and not 12db.


Good to know! And funny I'm in a similar position atm.

The 12 dB difference was between the Cinema 40 and AVR-X3800H that ohmSweetOhm seems to be comparing, based on Amir's chart:

As I stated many times, that's just one test and we have seen such seemingly strange results that could no be easily explained, in this case because both have the same parts and design, except the HDAM thing so to me it is not very meaningful to compare that particular measurements, likely just an outlier, but imo only.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

My question was about the 3800 vs the 4800. Never mentioned the c40. But I fully understand your post.. it was probably just an outlier indeed.

 

[peng]

My question was about the 3800 vs the 4800. Never mentioned the c40. But I fully understand your post.. it was probably just an outlier indeed.

My mistake, sorry.

 

[Miker 1102]

No it wouldn't. I used to ignore the 3000 series years ago, but since the AVR-X3600H, the 3000 series appears to have become the value king, that is, as mentioned, they are more similar to the 4000 series than not, at least in areas that impact on audible sound quality. Obviously the X4800H, and Cinema 40 are better built but that does not mean it would make audible sound quality differences, or reliability. On money no object basis then of course go for the higher models.

Mostly false information, the 20 WPC more will only make a difference if you actually need that extra 20 W, most users wouldn't push their amps anywhere close to that point and if they are counting on that, they should get an external power amp anyway. 105 W vs 125 W is like one click difference on the volume dial, practically negligible but looks good on paper.

True, but typically no audible sound quality improvements.

False info, X3800H and X4800H use the same 32 bit DAC. If you are using AI such as Google's you need to challenge their answers on this and they will back off and tell you the truth or something closer to the truth.

False, they both have 3 HDMI outputs.

False information

Mostly false, and key word is "potentially" and the 4800 did do better based on Amir's bench test, but that's one test and just because it measured better, it does not mean it would do better in sound quality in real world use (that is, for music listening instead of test tones etc.)

Good post. I think the engineers did a miracle with that DAC.

 

[peng]

Good post. I think the engineers did a miracle with that DAC.

No doubt, but I also believe they had done sort of "binning" practice, probably negotiated with TI successfully because of their large volume purchases.

 

[Vincentponcet]

No doubt, but I also believe they had done sort of "binning" practice, probably negotiated with TI successfully because of the hug volume.

They could have skipped the front end oversampling of the dac chip with their al32/ddss-hd 32 like feeding it with 384KHz/32 bits. Also, I saw in a table that 4800 has a jitter reduction chip when 3800 doesn't. Someone else said the TI chip has bad THD at higher level so they could have done a -6dbfs input then a +6db in the output stage of the 4800.
Who knows ?
The 3800 Sinad is consistent with the dac chip specifications though.

 

[EWL5]

They could have skipped the front end oversampling of the dac chip with their al32/ddss-hd 32 like feeding it with 384KHz/32 bits. Also, I saw in a table that 4800 has a jitter reduction chip when 3800 doesn't. Someone else said the TI chip has bad THD at higher level so they could have done a -6dbfs input then a +6db in the output stage of the 4800.
Who knows ?
The 3800 Sinad is consistent with the dac chip specifications though.

What it boils down to is Denon allowed individuals to stay in their lanes: value-minded buyers will get the 3800 while more discerning enthusiasts will pay more for the 4800. Either way, I think both AVRs put a smile on their owner's faces!

 

[Miker 1102]

I agree with previous comments. I decided to stop SINAD chasing and I have just bought a Denon 3800H and I use external amplification and along with Dirac ART and Magic Beans True Target, I am delighted with the sound. I have made objective (measured in REW) improvements to my system using Dirac ART + Magic Beans + 4 subwoofers and using speakers with good directivity (Kef Q350 for the L/R and Kef Q150 for surrounds, also tried Polk XT20s which I also thought were great and have good directivity ) which I believe makes more of a difference than the SINAD difference between the 3800H and 4800H. The only reason I would go for the 6800H is for 6 height channels and I'm glad I didn't because I have been underwhelmed by Atmos in general and I don't have room for side surrounds and middle height channels.

I have observed (with REW measurements) and experienced and noticed that I get better sound when I use speakers, along with EQ, that have good directivity and I first heard this from @joentell.

I agree with the speakers. I enjoy the kefs.