Denon x3800h vs x4800h for sound?

[Oddball]

It's not just the depth of the deviation, but the breadth as well. Toole has research on this, but 1 dB is easy to hear depending on the breadth of it, and there is a threshold (Q) where it starts to become audible. Generally, these artifacts in the bass region when caused by interference are pretty wide.

I would certainly love to learn more about depth and breath, but can’t really understand the point from the above. And “generally” does not seem like a very specific term.

I do know that when I increase the sub volume by 1dB or change my curve by 1dB in the sub 80hz area there is nothing really to be heard. Perhaps traces of it but then not meaningful for my ears, although REW will clearly show it.

And just a practical point, mixes are so different in their presentation of low end and rightfully so as that is their “artistic” prerogative. But the practical fact is that a particular person will love some of them and dislike the others.

And then the fact that some research showed what most people prefer in terms of curves and bass has nothing to do with me. It’s just a stat. If you want to follow, the world is still relatively free, at least in this respect.

 

[Chromatischism]

I would certainly love to learn more about depth and breath, but can’t really understand the point from the above. And “generally” does not seem like a very specific term.

I'm speaking of Q, the width of the deviation.

I do know that when I increase the sub volume by 1dB or change my curve by 1dB in the sub 80hz area there is nothing really to be heard. Perhaps traces of it but then not meaningful for my ears, although REW will clearly show it.

What is your metric? Music easily reveals it.

 

[Oddball]

I'm speaking of Q, the width of the deviation.


What is your metric? Music easily reveals it.

Don’t really listen to music in this system any more which is sad, so mostly soundtracks.

Q is more difficult to answer as it is not just a mater of using one filter with one Q - and not sure what is the practical situation that was explored in research.

The way it works in Audy is that you give it a curve and it creates its own filters to get you there. Then you measure with REW and correct. This can be done with different curves or with adding specific, usually narrow band corrections if you don’t like the smaller area of response.

But overall, as noted, I will not be able to tell 1dB difference even if it extended across 20-80hz range. It would be a tingle rather than anything else.

 

[Chromatischism]

But overall, as noted, I will not be able to tell 1dB difference even if it extended across 20-80hz range.

I can easily hear that. It sounds like an overall reduction in the balance of bass to treble. The music will sound a little bit more forward and less impactful. That is the kind of fine tuning I do when setting up the system: set subwoofer levels in the AVR after the EQ is done.

I went looking for what I was referring to and found it:

Let’s now turn to the second question: What departures from flat response are audible and/or objectionable? A rise in the bass region will lead to a “boomy” or “muddy” sound. With a rise in the treble region, the speaker will sound “bright” or “detailed.” The high frequency boost will add an exaggerated “sparkle” to cymbals and triangles and an “etched” quality to trombone blats. If the high-frequency rise is excessive, all sounds will have an added “sizzle.” A broad shallow dip in the midrange can make the speaker sound “dark” with the image “recessed.” (Notice I have used subjective terms to describe the effect of the frequency response errors.)

Peaks and dips are a major manifestation of frequency response anomalies. Peaks in frequency response are caused by resonances and can be characterized by a central frequency, and a Q that is associated with the height and width of the resonance. Toole and Olive have investigated the audibility of resonances (4).

Figure 4 shows the detection threshold for resonances of various Qs in the presence of typical program music. You see that very narrow resonances (high Q) must be about 10dB above the average level to be heard, whereas very broad resonances need only be 1 to 2dB higher to be detected.

https://audioxpress.com/article/testing-loudspeakers-which-measurements-matter-part-1

And:

Audibility of Resonances​

The “Q” indicates how steep the resonance is in the frequency domain. In the time domain (not shown), the higher the Q, the more “ringing” the system has. Ringing means that a transient signal (think of a spike) will create ripples that go on for some time after they disappear. An ideal system would reproduce that transient with zero ringing. The higher the Q of a resonance, the more ringing the system has.

Reading what I just wrote, if I asked which one of the resonances on the right is more audible, you will likely say High Q. It seems natural that it has the highest amplitude change and more time domain impact per my explanation. Yet listening tests show the opposite to be true! The Low Q is more audible.

How can that be? Well, it has to do with statistics. A Low Q resonance spans a wider set of frequencies. That increases the chances that some tone in our source content hits it and therefore will be reproduced at the wrong level. The narrow resonance can do more damage but the probability of us catching it in the act is lower because fewer tones energize it.

Listening tests conducted by Toole and Olive show that we hear variations as low as 0.5 decibels in Low Q resonances. This makes a mockery of the typical industry specification of +-3 dB being good enough for speakers. Clearly if 0.5 dB is audible, +-3 dB represents a huge amount of audible variation from our target neutral reproduction of our source material.

https://www.madronadigital.com/audibility-of-small-distortions

 

[Oddball]

I am then blessed with a hearing that can’t detect these as you must be really in trouble suffering over 1dB mischief.

Not going to question if u did double blind test or anything, but to me sounds entirely unconvincing and completely over the top. If you think you hear it it’s all that really matters to you, but with all the quotes in the world you will not convince me what I hear.

Good luck with your audio journey and hope it eventually ends in Nirvana.

 

[Chromatischism]

I am then blessed with a hearing that can’t detect these as you must be really in trouble suffering over 1dB mischief.

Consider yourself blessed, then. It's not a rare ability, as shown by the research.

I have to tune IEMs in the same way. Small changes in bass levels are easily detectable and are very impactful.

 

[cdx47]

I'm still learning about this stuff and @peng's post just reminded me of the discussions I see in the A1 Evo forums. Although adding another sub is almost always a good idea I see REW being used to plot expected results vs actual results from Nexus so I assume that is based on previous correlated room readings. I've learned a little over the past few years, but recently quite a bit more with A1. But I'm sure it's still only the bare bones basics. Anyway, interesting responses.

As for 3800 vs 4800? I would love to have bought the "Japanese" 4800. But in Europe, the 3800 on special offer is still around $1250 while the 4800 is closer to $2000. Plus I'm seeing more reported issues with the 4800 and I still can't believe how good the 3800 sounds when compared to my old SR60xx series Marantz. So I'm good with the 3800

 

[peng]

I'm still learning about this stuff and @peng's post just reminded me of the discussions I see in the A1 Evo forums. Although adding another sub is almost always a good idea I see REW being used to plot expected results vs actual results from Nexus so I assume that is based on previous correlated room readings. I've learned a little over the past few years, but recently quite a bit more with A1. But I'm sure it's still only the bare bones basics. Anyway, interesting responses.

As for 3800 vs 4800? I would love to have bought the "Japanese" 4800. But in Europe, the 3800 on special offer is still around $1250 while the 4800 is closer to $2000. Plus I'm seeing more reported issues with the 4800 and I still can't believe how good the 3800 sounds when compared to my old SR60xx series Marantz. So I'm good with the 3800

Good for you, I am 100% sure the 3800 will sound the same in a properly conducted/bias controlled comparison listening tests, music or movies. Trust science and engineering on this! Everything that matters in terms of human audibility are measurable, mysteriously missing measurements that matter are self inflicted.

But I won't argue with anyone, not any more.

 

[peng]

I'm still learning about this stuff and @peng's post just reminded me of the discussions I see in the A1 Evo forums. Although adding another sub is almost always a good idea I see REW being used to plot expected results vs actual results from Nexus so I assume that is based on previous correlated room readings. I've learned a little over the past few years, but recently quite a bit more with A1. But I'm sure it's still only the bare bones basics. Anyway, interesting responses.

As for 3800 vs 4800? I would love to have bought the "Japanese" 4800. But in Europe, the 3800 on special offer is still around $1250 while the 4800 is closer to $2000. Plus I'm seeing more reported issues with the 4800 and I still can't believe how good the 3800 sounds when compared to my old SR60xx series Marantz. So I'm good with the 3800

By the way, @Miker 1102 believe the 3800 has the 2ch playback menu but iirc he's not using it so I wonder if you can test and confirm that it does have the 2 ch menu, thanks in advance..

Here's what it would look like, based on the AVR-X4800H, the PDF manual for the AVR-X3800H does not have this page/menu, but we already know we cannot 100% rely on Denon/Marantz's owner's manuals, and that they seem to have different versions of such owner's manuals. In some cases, slightly different features (like less than 1% difference) on different versions of the hardware as well, such as EU vs NA vs Asia versions..

This 2ch playback menu is of value to me because I will be using it for 2ch only and mostly in direct mode. The 2ch Playback, according to the manual (and what I remember on my AVR-X4400H) applies to direct mode as well so the crossover settings might work, again I was sure it worked on my 4400.

 

[cdx47]

Good for you, I am 100% sure the 3800 will sound the same in a properly conducted/bias controlled comparison listening tests, music or movies. Trust science and engineering on this! Everything that matters in terms of human audibility are measurable, mysteriously missing measurements that matter are self inflicted.

But I won't argue with anyone, not any more.

Of course I haven't measured the difference between my old and new receiver. But I was NOT expecting any difference at all between the two. So I know this isn't a new buyer wishful thinking because the thought didn't even occur to me that the 3800 would sound better. Until I heard the difference, I actually thought of it as a side-grade not an upgrade.

 

[TheAVInsider]

Asking the same question as OP, except with one caveat.
I intend to only use it as a pre/amp, utilizing a pair of external amplifiers with Hypex modules.
I might even consider the X6800H, given it's better DAC, expandability, and longer expected official support. Sorry, front wides are not an option in any of my multi-channel rooms.

 

[EWL5]

Asking the same question as OP, except with one caveat.
I intend to only use it as a pre/amp, utilizing a pair of external amplifiers with Hypex modules.
I might even consider the X6800H, given it's better DAC, expandability, and longer expected official support. Sorry, front wides are not an option in any of my multi-channel rooms.

The 3800 has the same DACs as the 4800 and can be had for less than $1k this season.

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

Hi. I decided to buy the Denon x3800h and I will need a power amp for the two channels missing in my 7.2.4 setup. I was thinking on getting the Audiophonics hypex nc502mp to power the mains L+R but I should also get another external power amp for the center, right? Or would it be ok to leave the center for the Denon? If not, any suggestions on a power amp just for the center?

Thanks

 

[ban25]

Hi. I decided to buy the Denon x3800h and I will need a power amp for the two channels missing in my 9.2.4 setup. I was thinking on getting the Audiophonics hypex nc502mp to power the mains L+R but I should also get another external power amp for the center, right? Or would it be ok to leave the center for the Denon? If not, any suggestions on a power amp just for the center?

Thanks

Maybe consider a 3-channel hypex amp from Audiophonics (or Apollon, etc.)? It's probably worth offloading the center given that you're otherwise relying on the Denon to drive the remaining 8 speakers.

 

[Randyman...]

Asking the same question as OP, except with one caveat.
I intend to only use it as a pre/amp, utilizing a pair of external amplifiers with Hypex modules.
I might even consider the X6800H, given it's better DAC, expandability, and longer expected official support. Sorry, front wides are not an option in any of my multi-channel rooms.

Just make sure you set the speaker config to Preamp for those channels that will be using Pre Outs. This allows maximum RCA output voltage w/o double terminating to the internal amps (which apparently greatly limits the RCA voltage well below 2v).

 

[peng]

Just make sure you set the speaker config to Preamp for those channels that will be using Pre Outs. This allows maximum RCA output voltage w/o double terminating to the internal amps (which apparently greatly limits the RCA voltage well below 2v).

Lots of misconception on this, still.. The maximum output voltage does not change much whether is is in preamp mode. What actually change in preamp mode is that at higher output voltage such as above 1.5 V, THD+noise, or SINAD if one prefers the term, will remain good until it hits >3 to 4 V, whereas in non preamp mode, SINAD would drop a lot more at higher voltage, though in either case it won't be really clipping unit about 3.5 to 4 V. So, no, the voltage won't be limited to below 2 V, that's a fact, plenty of measurements out there, one just need a multimeter to verify it.

I keep repeating this clarification point just so people who are using external amps but also use the build in amps for some of the channels won't worry because of the incorrect info/or at least terms, often used on this and other forums, it is one of those die hard misconceptions that will take forever to fade away, unfortunately.

 

[Tiago Pimentel]

Guys what do you think of these options for the front stage?

L+R - https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power-amplifiers/audiophonics-ap300-s500nc-p-18566.html

Center - https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/powe...-mono-ncore-nc500mp-1x500w-4-ohm-p-14319.html

Denon x3800h will handle everything else.

 

[ban25]

Guys what do you think of these options for the front stage?

L+R - https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power-amplifiers/audiophonics-ap300-s500nc-p-18566.html

Center - https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/powe...-mono-ncore-nc500mp-1x500w-4-ohm-p-14319.html

Denon x3800h will handle everything else.

I say go for it!

 

[Randyman...]

Lots of misconception on this, still.. The maximum output voltage does not change much whether is is in preamp mode. What actually change in preamp mode is that at higher output voltage such as above 1.5 V, THD+noise, or SINAD if one prefers the term, will remain good until it hits >3 to 4 V, whereas in non preamp mode, SINAD would drop a lot more at higher voltage, though in either case it won't be really clipping unit about 3.5 to 4 V. So, no, the voltage won't be limited to below 2 V, that's a fact, plenty of measurements out there, one just need a multimeter to verify it.

I keep repeating this clarification point just so people who are using external amps but also use the build in amps for some of the channels won't worry because of the incorrect info/or at least terms, often used on this and other forums, it is one of those die hard misconceptions that will take forever to fade away, unfortunately.

Just make sure you set the speaker config to Preamp for those channels that will be using Pre Outs. This allows maximum performance from your Denon RCA output voltage w/o double terminating to the internal amps (which apparently greatly limits the RCA's SINAD above 1.5v voltage well below 2v).

Fixed it . End result is the same = recommended practice will be to set any externally amplified channels to "Preamp" to get best performance. Solid advice.

 

[peng]

Fixed it . End result is the same = recommended practice will be to set any externally amplified channels to "Preamp" to get best performance. Solid advice.

Absolutely, when I had the AVR-X1800H, the first thing I did was to set the front L to front R to preamp mode. I most likely can't hear the difference between 85 and 75 dB SINAD, but if I can get 10 dB higher SINAD it would be silly not to get it, let alone the other benefits of preamp mode such as lower consumption, and clipping the power amps for no reasons, when they are not used anyway.

The huge advantages of the Denon/Marantz AVRs at that price level are the flexible preamp mode (i.e. by individual channels) and the 4 discrete subwoofer outputs, as much as I really would have preferred Onkyo's RZ30 and RZ50, there is no way I would go for them instead of the X3800H that is unbeatable at its current sales price. Some will say, well Onkyo's include the DL license, that is true but D+M includes Audyssey XT32, SubEQ HT that is very capable when used with the $20 app, so one should have no hurry to upgrade to DLBC. I am still considering buying the X3800H and just use it as a toy, that could be a backup for my main system though I hope it will never be called for such duty lol.....