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Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

Bleib

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starfly

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The trouble is that I have a 120hz 4K TV but the amplifier is only up to 4k 60hz. Would this still work? I want 120hz signal to the TV and all the audio to the amp.
I got that device and it works fine so far. 4K120 device direct to TV, and then TV's eARC port to audio extractor, and audio extractor to a HDMI input on AVR. And then I have the AVR's output to an input on the audio extractor, so that video from all other devices connected to AVR gets sent to TV.
 

Lbstyling

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Can anyone confirm the current x4600h has inferior DACs?

This is what have read in this thread so far, but I understand the AKM factory is back up and running now, and haven't found any posts with anyone actually laying eyes on the current DAC in the unit to confirm.
 

multisport4me

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Can anyone confirm the current x4600h has inferior DACs?

This is what have read in this thread so far, but I understand the AKM factory is back up and running now, and haven't found any posts with anyone actually laying eyes on the current DAC in the unit to confirm.

There are different DACs but testing by Amir on at least one of the effected units showed little to no difference in performance. I doubt D&M will do another running change to go back to AKM DACs on current models. I'm hopeful they're working on new designs and can actually exploit the AKM DACs if they do go back to using them.

On the upside, I understand they may be working on an AVR with a built-in glucose monitor. But that is just a rumor... :)
 

Lbstyling

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There are different DACs but testing by Amir on at least one of the effected units showed little to no difference in performance. I doubt D&M will do another running change to go back to AKM DACs on current models. I'm hopeful they're working on new designs and can actually exploit the AKM DACs if they do go back to using them.

On the upside, I understand they may be working on an AVR with a built-in glucose monitor. But that is just a rumor... :)
Can you link the review?
 

Dj7675

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There are different DACs but testing by Amir on at least one of the effected units showed little to no difference in performance. I doubt D&M will do another running change to go back to AKM DACs on current models. I'm hopeful they're working on new designs and can actually exploit the AKM DACs if they do go back to using them.

On the upside, I understand they may be working on an AVR with a built-in glucose monitor. But that is just a rumor... :)
I'm not aware of any testing on the replaement DAC's. Could be wrong but don't recall seeing one. People are interested if there is any differences, but I'm not aware of any testing done yet.
 

multisport4me

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dlaloum

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Can anyone confirm the current x4600h has inferior DACs?

This is what have read in this thread so far, but I understand the AKM factory is back up and running now, and haven't found any posts with anyone actually laying eyes on the current DAC in the unit to confirm.
Several things to keep in mind:

  1. AKM factory is coming back on line...
    1. They have promised test batches only so far
    2. Mass production batches (ie: standard production) is not due until end 3rd QTR or 4th QTR...
    3. By the time a 4th QTR production batch gets shipped, and stuff gets built, then shipped out to retail it will be 2023 (my guess)
  2. We are getting confirmation from multiple sources that the Xx700 series are discontinued...
    1. Word has come back that what stock of X3700's is in the pipeline is what is left, they are not making any more
    2. There are earlier rumours that they were planning to launch the Xx800 series late this year
    3. It would therefore make sense that they would be preparing to manufacture the Xx800 models (or perhaps already manufacturing them)
    4. There may be less of a squeeze on X4700 stock... but assumption is that X3800 and X4800 manufacturing will probably go hand in hand... So I expect we will start to hear that the X4700 has been discontinued fairly soon
  3. Are you asking about the X4600 (previous generation) or the current X4700?

 

peng

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I thought there were tests of the "new" Denon's? Amir tested a Marantz 8805A that replaced AKM with ESS DACs so I guess I'm confusing things. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/marantz-av8805a-review-av-processor.25971/

Keep in mind that the ESS DAC in the 8805A has lower SINAD than the AKM one but it's SINAD is still higher than the other parts in the signal path such as the volume control IC and probably one of the op amps and likely the HDAM that is basically a discrete op amps.

So in that case (the AV8805A) the ESS chip, while have lower specs, is not the bottleneck. Not the same story for the AKM vs the alleged PCM5102A that has its SINAD lower by 14 dB to the point it could well be the bottleneck (being the weak link) now in the signal path. Audibility is obvious a different topic.

I am surprised no one has sent one of those PCM5102A fitted Denon to Amir yet.. There may have been some measured by forum members but I think we need Amir to measure one in order to have an apple to apple comparison.
 

Lbstyling

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Several things to keep in mind:

  1. AKM factory is coming back on line...
    1. They have promised test batches only so far
    2. Mass production batches (ie: standard production) is not due until end 3rd QTR or 4th QTR...
    3. By the time a 4th QTR production batch gets shipped, and stuff gets built, then shipped out to retail it will be 2023 (my guess)
  2. We are getting confirmation from multiple sources that the Xx700 series are discontinued...
    1. Word has come back that what stock of X3700's is in the pipeline is what is left, they are not making any more
    2. There are earlier rumours that they were planning to launch the Xx800 series late this year
    3. It would therefore make sense that they would be preparing to manufacture the Xx800 models (or perhaps already manufacturing them)
    4. There may be less of a squeeze on X4700 stock... but assumption is that X3800 and X4800 manufacturing will probably go hand in hand... So I expect we will start to hear that the X4700 has been discontinued fairly soon
  3. Are you asking about the X4600 (previous generation) or the current X4700?

Lots of relevant detail here, much appreciated!

I'm in no rush for the AVR, but expect the replacement x800series will be more expensive given inflation is running at 9.1% right now.

I have gone to great lengths getting my front speakers to very low distortion levels (circa -70db at 100db SPL), but as they are horns, they are also extremely efficient (112db at 1w)

Almost all partnering electronic options cause audible hiss with my system, so in my case SINAD must be as low as possible.

I was going for the x4700h and external L+R amps (hypex), but can't take the risk given the DAC change.
 

dlaloum

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Lots of relevant detail here, much appreciated!

I'm in no rush for the AVR, but expect the replacement x800series will be more expensive given inflation is running at 9.1% right now.

I have gone to great lengths getting my front speakers to very low distortion levels (circa -70db at 100db SPL), but as they are horns, they are also extremely efficient (112db at 1w)

Almost all partnering electronic options cause audible hiss with my system, so in my case SINAD must be as low as possible.

I was going for the x4700h and external L+R amps (hypex), but can't take the risk given the DAC change.
With speakers that sensitive, at least you don't have to worry about having enough power... Why the Hypex external amps?

There may be some bargains available once the X4800's hit the market and retailers look to get rid of the last X4700's....
 

MarcT

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With speakers that sensitive, at least you don't have to worry about having enough power... Why the Hypex external amps?

There may be some bargains available once the X4800's hit the market and retailers look to get rid of the last X4700's....
That would be ideal, as the front left channel has cratered on my AVR-X5200 and I'm not sure it's worth it to pay up to $500 to get it repaired.
 

Lbstyling

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With speakers that sensitive, at least you don't have to worry about having enough power... Why the Hypex external amps?

There may be some bargains available once the X4800's hit the market and retailers look to get rid of the last X4700's....

At the time, hypex amps had the best SINAD tested. The speakers are DIY, so I use the hypex fusion plate amp with digital active crossovers and time/phase alignment.
 

peng

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With speakers that sensitive, at least you don't have to worry about having enough power... Why the Hypex external amps?

There may be some bargains available once the X4800's hit the market and retailers look to get rid of the last X4700's....

If I understood correctly, it wasn't power he worry about but the much lower SINAD of the PCM5102A that are used in the newer X4700H. It may be a valid concern if the X4700H now only managed say, below 90 dB at below 0.5 V (less than 0.15V will drive a 26 dB Hypex amp to output 1 W 8 ohms) , then it would become the weaker link relative to the Hypex amp's own SINAD depending on which Hypex amp obviously as some measured better than others. We don't know this for sure because, again, none of those Denon AVRs with the TI DAC chips have been measured yet by Amir.

Amir did measured the zone 2 of the DRA-800H that has the PCM5100A and the results were not encouraging.., though the PCM5102A's SINAD is 3 dB higher (93 vs 90). The original AK4458's 107 dB

I think @Lbstyling 's case is extreme. I am curious to know what kind of speaker he has that could do 112 dB/1w!
 
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Lbstyling

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If I understood correctly, it wasn't power he worry about but the much lower SINAD of the PCM5102A that are used in the newer X4470H.
Yup.
I think @Lbstyling 's case is extreme. I am curious to know what kind of speaker he has that could do 112 dB/1w!
Here's my tweeter:


i have the truExtent beryllium diaphragms fitted taking it up to 112/113db@1w.

Bass drivers are only 100db/1w/1m
 

peng

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Turns

I found a post on this forum where someone had both versions and ironically preferred the new one! The unit I now have which was supposed to be the new one is actually confirmed by Denon to be the old one. Not sure if that’s good or bad! Will probably devalue it a bit unless the new ones really turn out to be much worse.

That's good for you! Preference based on ears is subjective, so you may not prefer the same. Personally I believe there will be no audible difference between the 2 for normal use, but I prefer the Ak4458 that has much lower distortion regardless.
 

MissionImp

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There were some evidence presented by at least one ASR member if I remember right.. Below is one:


This example was the 3700, which ‘may’ have different DAC’s to the 4700 though.

Any concrete testing or other evidence as to performance comparisons v1 > v2 yet?
 

Brambo67

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Having been using my 'downgraded' AVC-X4700h now for over half a year. I spent some cash on upgraded speakers (was Jamo S608 with 602 for surround, is Wharfedale EVO 4.4 with Wharfedale D220 for surround and Wharfedale SW12 sub for Jamo S300 sub) I'm really satisfied. I hardly use the Topping DAC for 'better HiFi due to better DAC. Mostly I stream Apple Music (lossless) via HEOS and it sounds great. Still, from curiosity perspective, I'd like to know which DAC then is being employed. If I'm correct it isn't the PCM5102 but the 5100 network DAC. Can anyone confirm? So, Apple music from iPhone or iPad to AVC to zone1 Wharfedale EVO 4.4 speakers. No zone 2 used as I run full 7.1.4 setup in my living room for home cinema purposes with Marantz MM7025 power amplifier driving the fronts.
 

peng

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Having been using my 'downgraded' AVC-X4700h now for over half a year. I spent some cash on upgraded speakers (was Jamo S608 with 602 for surround, is Wharfedale EVO 4.4 with Wharfedale D220 for surround and Wharfedale SW12 sub for Jamo S300 sub) I'm really satisfied. I hardly use the Topping DAC for 'better HiFi due to better DAC. Mostly I stream Apple Music (lossless) via HEOS and it sounds great. Still, from curiosity perspective, I'd like to know which DAC then is being employed. If I'm correct it isn't the PCM5102 but the 5100 network DAC. Can anyone confirm? So, Apple music from iPhone or iPad to AVC to zone1 Wharfedale EVO 4.4 speakers. No zone 2 used as I run full 7.1.4 setup in my living room for home cinema purposes with Marantz MM7025 power amplifier driving the fronts.

It seems to be the PCM5102A based on many posts including the one linked below. The difference between the 5102 and 5100 is very minor anyway.

 

N1ck

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This example was the 3700, which ‘may’ have different DAC’s to the 4700 though.

Any concrete testing or other evidence as to performance comparisons v1 > v2 yet?
I find it very strange that we have heard nothing in terms of retesting the Denons. Have we really had no doners or is there a reluctance to retest in fear of the budget champion being dethroned?
 
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