Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[dlaloum]

Your "definitely" means, that there is basically no Yamaha AVR being tested, apart from one vintage model.

It must be difficult working out how to search the reviews... but I can handle the occasional silver spoon...

Here is a current model review:

Yamaha RX-V6A 7.2 channel 4K / 8K Dolby AV Receiver Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Yamaha RX-V6A "8K" Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). They only announced two such 8K AVRs and this is the upper model. Our company (Madrona Digital) is a dealer for Yamaha so I was able to purchase this at a discount for testing. Retail cost is US...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And if you select "Brand" = Yamaha, and under "Type" = AVR/AVP - you will get a list of 4 AVP's tested by Amir....

Audio Electronics Review and Measurements Index

Master table and index of all audio equipment reviews and measurements.

www.audiosciencereview.com

Enjoy!

 

[-pekr-]

It must be difficult working out how to search the reviews... but I can handle the occasional silver spoon...

Here is a current model review:

Yamaha RX-V6A 7.2 channel 4K / 8K Dolby AV Receiver Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Yamaha RX-V6A "8K" Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). They only announced two such 8K AVRs and this is the upper model. Our company (Madrona Digital) is a dealer for Yamaha so I was able to purchase this at a discount for testing. Retail cost is US...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And if you select "Brand" = Yamaha, and under "Type" = AVR/AVP - you will get a list of 4 AVP's tested by Amir....

Audio Electronics Review and Measurements Index

Master table and index of all audio equipment reviews and measurements.

www.audiosciencereview.com

Enjoy!

Well, actually it was not difficult to filter out Yamaha. It is just my idiocy to wrongly reading column "Recommended" as "Reviewed", and seeing "No" there. Then I tried to click the model name, and it lead me to Yamaha website. Now I can see I can click the "Review date" one. Thanks for pointing that out.

This particular yamaha measures even worse, than my x3500h. It stems down to ppl not considering those facts, but how the unit sounds to their ears mostly, and even more - in their homes, where accoustic treatments might differ and influence the experience (hard floors vs carpets etc.).

Thanks for the corrections ....

 

[peng]

Well, actually it was not difficult to filter out Yamaha. It is just my idiocy to wrongly reading column "Recommended" as "Reviewed", and seeing "No" there. Then I tried to click the model name, and it lead me to Yamaha website. Now I can see I can click the "Review date" one. Thanks for pointing that out.

This particular yamaha measures even worse, than my x3500h. It stems down to ppl not considering those facts, but how the unit sounds to their ears mostly, and even more - in their homes, where accoustic treatments might differ and influence the experience (hard floors vs carpets etc.).

Thanks for the corrections ....

The x3500h can sound as good as any high end separates under some conditions, that's based on what bench test results may indicate. Based on people's actual listening experience in demo rooms will be a totally different story because it would depend on so many other factors including the lack of bias controls. The so called Marantz "warm sound" (re: recent AVR/AVP models) is a good example, some people think that is a fact, while others don't, and the objective facts and data would indicate it is not..

 

[alik1006]

Your "definitely" means, that there is basically no Yamaha AVR being tested, apart from one vintage model.

Your "those are the only ones tested" apparently means "no Yamaha AVR".
As far as I know you can send any AVR to amirm - and he will test it.

 

[-pekr-]

Your "those are the only ones tested" apparently means "no Yamaha AVR".
As far as I know you can send any AVR to amirm - and he will test it.

That was not the point. The point was that in our region, Onkyo (even with its inherend HDMI board problems) was often recommended, and Yamaha Aventage seemed to be a godly decision with almost pure hifi experience. Then there was Marantz with its nice warm sound (whatever it means) and Denon was the last resort with it's meh, dull sounding stereo experience. Based upon that, I have expected Yamaha would got more reviews. There has to be different experience / preference bias across the regions ....

 

[dlaloum]

Yamaha's have a long term reputation for good reliability (better than Denon/Marantz and the Onkyo/Pioneer family)...

They also have a reputation for so-so RoomEQ with their proprietary system.... which competed with Pioneer's MCACC room EQ (which was rebranded under Onkyo and Integra as AccuEQ) - but which the marketplace in general considered to be equally "meh" compared to Audyssey and Dirac.

In terms of sound in Unequalised "Raw" form - The Yamaha's have always ranked and reviewed well, and received plenty of love from their proponents.

I haven't listened to one seriously in quite a few years - but reviews have been consistent with my own experiences over a decade ago.

My own experiments at home, resulted in me preferring my Onkyo & Integra AVR's in "raw" form rather than with RoomEQ enabled... (Audyssey XT & XT32 ... prior to the AccuEQ generation, or the current DIRAC versions) - possibly due to a good room setup needing no dramatic EQ... so I would place Yamaha on my shortlist, if it weren't for my interest in trying out DIRAC Live... so I have an Integra on pre-order. (Denon was my 2nd preference with Audyssey and their newfound adjustability via the app....)

If Yamaha was to do something market leading in their RoomEQ - that would definitely prompt some interest....

 

[Brambo67]

So, on the DAC-change topic again... ;-) I found this on https://www.audionet.com.tw/thread-13948-1-1.html It is regarding the Marantz SR7015. At least the author not only shares 'our worries' but also has an interesting way of looking towards the change:

The vertical circuit board here is the 11.2-channel digital-to-analog conversion circuit of this machine. It is very different from the practice of most surround amplifiers. It adopts "two-channel" production. The DAC is used for multi-channel digital-to-analog conversion. The upper and lower sides of this circuit board are directly connected to the digital motherboard and the pre-amp circuit board, so it is also a "connection board". The design of the vertical configuration of the digital-to-analog conversion circuit board can not only reduce the signal path. It can also reduce the number of contacts that the signal passes through, which helps to improve the transmission quality.

Before disassembling the machine, I had already guessed where the digital-to-class conversion circuit board of the SR7015 was installed. After disassembling the machine, I took a closer look, oh! It is different from the previous practice: Marantz used "two pieces" of Asahi Kasei's 32-bit "8-channel" digital conversion chip AK4458VN for its mid- and high-priced surround amplifiers. The channel digital-to-class conversion chip "TI (Burr-Brown) PCM5102A, is it possible that Marantz really wants to make its own surround amplifiers completely compare to the practice of two-channel audio equipment? In fact, this is a change design made for "strain".

If you check the SR7015 on Marantz's official website, the information you see is that it uses two AK4458VNs. This is the status of the SR7015 "just launched abroad". However, due to the Asahi Kasei fire and the tight chip manufacturing, Marantz has previously announced that it will adjust some models. The DAC chip used, also said that changing the design will not affect the sound quality. Will it really not change? In terms of pure component performance, the dynamic range and distortion rate of PCM5102A are slightly inferior to AK4458VN. However, in terms of circuit structure, I think that a group of two channels (using PCM5012A) will be better than a group of eight channels (using AK4458VN). Higher channel separation, this is the benefit of "two-channelization".

So since my Chinese language skills are, let's say, sub-par... the translation was done through Google. Anyway, clear that the PCM5102 does the de digital -> analog decoding now. And this is also how you can look at it: In terms of pure component performance, the dynamic range and distortion rate of PCM5102A are slightly inferior to AK4458VN. However, in terms of circuit structure, I think that a group of two channels (using PCM5012A) will be better than a group of eight channels (using AK4458VN). Higher channel separation, this is the benefit of "two-channelization".

 

[peng]

So, on the DAC-change topic again... ;-) I found this on https://www.audionet.com.tw/thread-13948-1-1.html It is regarding the Marantz SR7015. At least the author not only shares 'our worries' but also has an interesting way of looking towards the change:

The vertical circuit board here is the 11.2-channel digital-to-analog conversion circuit of this machine. It is very different from the practice of most surround amplifiers. It adopts "two-channel" production. The DAC is used for multi-channel digital-to-analog conversion. The upper and lower sides of this circuit board are directly connected to the digital motherboard and the pre-amp circuit board, so it is also a "connection board". The design of the vertical configuration of the digital-to-analog conversion circuit board can not only reduce the signal path. It can also reduce the number of contacts that the signal passes through, which helps to improve the transmission quality.

Before disassembling the machine, I had already guessed where the digital-to-class conversion circuit board of the SR7015 was installed. After disassembling the machine, I took a closer look, oh! It is different from the previous practice: Marantz used "two pieces" of Asahi Kasei's 32-bit "8-channel" digital conversion chip AK4458VN for its mid- and high-priced surround amplifiers. The channel digital-to-class conversion chip "TI (Burr-Brown) PCM5102A, is it possible that Marantz really wants to make its own surround amplifiers completely compare to the practice of two-channel audio equipment? In fact, this is a change design made for "strain".

If you check the SR7015 on Marantz's official website, the information you see is that it uses two AK4458VNs. This is the status of the SR7015 "just launched abroad". However, due to the Asahi Kasei fire and the tight chip manufacturing, Marantz has previously announced that it will adjust some models. The DAC chip used, also said that changing the design will not affect the sound quality. Will it really not change? In terms of pure component performance, the dynamic range and distortion rate of PCM5102A are slightly inferior to AK4458VN. However, in terms of circuit structure, I think that a group of two channels (using PCM5012A) will be better than a group of eight channels (using AK4458VN). Higher channel separation, this is the benefit of "two-channelization".

So since my Chinese language skills are, let's say, sub-par... the translation was done through Google. Anyway, clear that the PCM5102 does the de digital -> analog decoding now. And this is also how you can look at it: In terms of pure component performance, the dynamic range and distortion rate of PCM5102A are slightly inferior to AK4458VN. However, in terms of circuit structure, I think that a group of two channels (using PCM5012A) will be better than a group of eight channels (using AK4458VN). Higher channel separation, this is the benefit of "two-channelization".

All else being equal, he may have a point on the 2 vs 8 channel thing. In this case it doesn't apply when the SINAD of the PCM5102A is 14 dB lower. The flagship Denon and Marantz AVPs also uses 2 channel dac chips such as the PCM1795, 1796, AK4490 and now the ES9010K2M. If Denon/Marantz uses 2 channel dac chips that has specs similar to or a little worse than the AK4458, then it would have been easier to accept.

 

[Barbazul]

Hello, I'm new to this forum. I own a Marantz SR6011 and I wanted to get an upgrade so I started the digging for opinions over the newest Marantz models, particularly the SR7015 and internet brought me here thankfully. After some readings I took the risk and bought the SR7015 (with the chance to return it). It was the recent generation (7XXXX serial number) so I knew this had the "downgraded DAC". I had it for 3 weeks, and made several tests with several formats (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, Auto 3D, DSD, SACD, CD, etc.). In both multichannel and stereo formats. I was ok when listening multichannel formats, I didn't noticed a difference between the SR6011 and the SR7015 in terms of sound but I was really happy to listen for the first time my Blu-ray Audio collection with Auto 3D format. So at this point this was a point in favor of the SR7015 (I'll leave the video advantages aside). Then the big test: stereo.... Here was my big disappointment! The 3D effect, intimacy, detail and fine sound I have with the SR6011 just disappeared! I could not accurately detect where the instruments were coming from. Bad, just bad. I was really hoping to find a night and day difference between these two models that are 5 or more years apart with the SR7015 tripling the cost of the SR6011. No way to justify the change if I'm looking for a better experience in all departments. I retuned the unit.

I know I can go for separates and get a better experience with stereo listening but I want all in a box because of the space I have for my home entertainment. I'll wait 1 or 2 years to change the box, and maybe I can go for a SR80XX. Hope the DAC thing change in the future for good.

Just to add some info about my system and test:
Both AVRs where calibrated with Audyssey and tested with Audyssey Eq On and Stereo Direct mode.
5.1.4 system:
Front right, front left and center channels preouts to an Emotiva XPA-Three.
Front stereo and center channels: KEF LS50 Meta's
Back sourround: KEF LS50's
Speakers height's: Micca M-8C
Sub: B&W ASW600

I'm not an audiophile expert but my ears have to be happy with any update as I think everyone should, else it's not worth taking the plunge.

Thanks for all the information found in this forum!!​

 

[Brambo67]

To be fair I do belief 'people' are capable of assessing which amp or AVR is 'better'. I also think there's a noticable difference between the low tier and high tier machines. Still if you listen to a AVR's playing in the same ballpark (Marantz 6 and 7 series) both equipped with different DAC's, it is difficult to relate any perception of the sound being produced to the DAC only. So much has changed between both machines. Even if you play HDMI-in 'lossless' music and send it to the speakers in Pure Direct mode, the whole (updated) architecture may play a (big) role. In the end the THD+N of the complete chain of chips will always be affected by using the internal amp's in the AVR. I truly cannot say the Denon 4700 with the PCM dual channel DAC's is worse sound-wise compared to my previous 3700 with both multi channel AKM DAC's.From an 'I know these DAC's have worse SINAD' perspective, I do know this does affect my (subjective) listening experience. Facts are, I also use the internal amp's and for 'Pure Direct' and an external Marantz Power Amp with better SINAD. Still worse compared to the theoretical optimum possibly given by the AKM DAC's compared to the TI's. Being a little optimistic I also like to think the Denon and Marantz engineers gave it their best to make an acceptable alternative to their initial engineered solution. But like I say all the time; we need an objective test (Amirm) and even then you determine yourself if you like the 'new' sound or not. Amirm is not recommending the Marantz 7015 even in it's 'old' setup and still many others really like the sound of it.

 

[peng]

I could not accurately detect where the instruments were coming from. Bad, just bad. I was really hoping to find a night and day difference between these two models that are 5 or more years apart with the SR7015 tripling the cost of the SR6011. No way to justify the change if I'm looking for a better experience in all departments. I retuned the unit.

Thanks for all the information found in this forum!!

It has been said many times sighted tests don't mean very much. That being said, all else aside, the way you described the difference as quoted above, if that was really experienced when listening to stereo in direct or pure direct mode, then something else is not right. There is no way the 7015 could be so different and to the point that you cannot "detect where the instruments were coming from....." regardless of the DAC change.

For that to happen, you pretty much have to have the front left and right speakers hooked up not in phase. That does not seem likely though because during auto setup/Audyssey, it would have been detected. On just in case basis, you may want to double check your connections.

Other than that, are you sure you were using direct or pure direct mode and did you compare the too using the same contents? At the level of such mid range AVRs especially in this case the only main difference in the hardware would be the DAC IC, the most important factor for sound quality should be the quality of the recording, and the speakers, not the preamp/power amps. If you are sure it is really that bad, then you should return it and keep using the 6011 that you seem to like and wait for better timing for an upgrade. Timing is bad now as prices have gone up and quality appear to have gone done (the lower grade DAC chip) due to supply chain issues so there really isn't any better choices unless you don't mind spending a lot more.

 

[-pekr-]

..... I truly cannot say the Denon 4700 with the PCM dual channel DAC's is worse sound-wise compared to my previous 3700 with both multi channel AKM DAC's. .....

Hi. I recently own x3500h along with Monitor audio Silver 200 5.0 setup. It is my very first setup / experience. I am long time planning some uprade along the following ideas:

- Upgrade to x3700h and add a Denon (want to stay with Denon) pma-1600ne successor, which hopefully will bring in direct-in, so that the stereo and multichannel experience can be easily mixed.
- One dealer told me to not overcomplicate the setup and go directly to the x4700h or even x6700h.

My questions basically are

1) Can you spot and difference with x3700h vs the x4700h? Just stereo, not trying to judge some Auro 3D etc. stuff.
2) Would I get always a better experience by adding some mid-level integrated amp to the setup? I was also suggested to consider a power-amp (namely small but nice white vintage looking Advanced Acoustic BX1- it would fit our furniture, so it would come easy with my wife ), but I consider power amps being just a "dead" box with no further separate usability, so still prefer an integrated solution for a separate experience in a stereo mode.

 

[ianh]

Hi. I recently own x3500h along with Monitor audio Silver 200 5.0 setup. It is my very first setup / experience. I am long time planning some uprade along the following ideas:

- Upgrade to x3700h and add a Denon (want to stay with Denon) pma-1600ne successor, which hopefully will bring in direct-in, so that the stereo and multichannel experience can be easily mixed.
- One dealer told me to not overcomplicate the setup and go directly to the x4700h or even x6700h.

My questions basically are

1) Can you spot and difference with x3700h vs the x4700h? Just stereo, not trying to judge some Auro 3D etc. stuff.
2) Would I get always a better experience by adding some mid-level integrated amp to the setup? I was also suggested to consider a power-amp (namely small but nice white vintage looking Advanced Acoustic BX1- it would fit our furniture, so it would come easy with my wife ), but I consider power amps being just a "dead" box with no further separate usability, so still prefer an integrated solution for a separate experience in a stereo mode.

I just got a x3700h, it's connected to Silver 500s and I find it better than expected (room is 32m2).

 

[Brambo67]

My questions basically are

1) Can you spot and difference with x3700h vs the x4700h? Just stereo, not trying to judge some Auro 3D etc. stuff.
2) Would I get always a better experience by adding some mid-level integrated amp to the setup? I was also suggested to consider a power-amp (namely small but nice white vintage looking Advanced Acoustic BX1- it would fit our furniture, so it would come easy with my wife ), but I consider power amps being just a "dead" box with no further separate usability, so still prefer an integrated solution for a separate experience in a stereo mode.

1) Since I can’t compare them side by side I find this impossible to tell. My 3700 wasn’t properly functioning (auto protect mode all the time) I had to take it for repair. I was afraid having to wait long and asked for a deal. I got one on the 4700. I like it’s looks better but apart from that… I had the AKM DAC’s and now the ‘inferior’ TI PCM. The 4700 works flawlessly and I’m happy with it.
2) I added a Marantz MM7025. Not the ‘cleanest’ amp but it brings a lot of extra ‘oomph’ in my home cinema setup. When I play stereo I do it in Pure Direct and it performs nice and bright. Of course better hifi options available but also much more expensive and not as clean in the living room. I had the same setup with the 3700 and of course it leaves a lot of juice for the remaining channels. I run a 7.1.4 setup so I needed an amp anyway. So for me definitely a better experience. For you it’s up to you to determine. My alternative would be a 6700 which would be more expensive as my current setup with less power.

 

[bigguyca]

So, not that it really matters or helps, I decided to do some further research It is clear Denon still also in the EU (Netherlands) is advertising for AKM DAC's in the 4700.

I've been going through some of the pictures I was able to collect the last few weeks on this forum and elsewhere. What I see is Denon advertised with a DAC-board picture of the earlier 4500 at the launch of the 4700. You can determine based upon the lay-out. The picture Denon Japan now is showing on it's website is indeed of the 4700 but is the initial AKM equipped DAC-board. You can see by comparing the picture of one of the forum members who took it of his DAC-board in his 4700. If you compare the lay-out ánd the code on top of the board you can see they are almost identical up to a few last characters behind the dash. It's something like 'CUP13103Z-.........' You can just see it on top of the picture.

This, and the forum members who got response from local/regional United Music distributors about the DAC changes, unfortunately makes the case stronger for assuming the whole 2020-> range of Marantz and Denon now is equipped with inferior DAC's. Since I don't like being mislead before sourcing a (at least here in NL) € 1.649,00 costing AVC, I consider at least bringing this up with the European or NL distributor. Like many said; in real life one can wonder about the net result of such a change. However it does matter if you go through pre-out to a 'clean' power amp and some high-end speakers. Or perhaps when listening through a wired headphone of particular quality. Anyway, I don't like being mislead. So the only thing for me that could, sort of at least, give me some comfort, would be knowing that in real life the revised 4700 plays (about) in the same ballpark as the one I thought I was buying.

Since Amirm's evaluating the performance of AVR's on DAC-performance, it definitely would be great to hear from him and better; get som updatet test results. Because also, until today at leats, Amirm is continuing to recommend the 3700, 4700, 6700 and the Marantz 8015. It would make sense to reconsider witnessing such expression of 'worry' on your own forum. For me as a consumer forums like these are so much more reliable than the ones related to magazines and commercial websites. So please Amir; share your thoughts and even better, updated test results.

View attachment 180145 View attachment 180146
Forum member's 4700, you can, when you expand, just read the code on top of the board. Right next to it the DENON.jp picture of the so called modified board. The lay-out is the same and different from the 4500 DAC-board. Almost same code on top; CUP13103Z-........

View attachment 180147 View attachment 180149
The 4500 DAC-board
View attachment 180148
The picture of the launch of the 4700 showing, apparently at least, the 4500 DAC-board

The EU fact sheet:

As another data point, in the picture of the two DAC boards the board labeled X6700H is a picture of the DAC board in the X6500H. The X6700H never used the board shown in the picture. The original board with the AKM AK4458 DAC IC's for the X6700H (V1) looks very different from the X6500H board shown in the picture. This sort of obvious mistake is unfortunately too common in Denon/Marantz marketing literature.

The X6700H (V1) DAC board does not have the external coax connection, or any signal connections to the back of the unit, for example.

The X6700H (V1) DAC board also has the transistors that are used to provide current sources to drive the opamps in the DAC filter circuits into Class A. This is a new feature of the X6700H and similar AVR's/AVP's of its generation, the X4700H for example. These transistors are visible in a X4700H picture in your post. The transistors are shown in the top left picture in a row below the opamps at the bottom of the picture. Additional transistors are on the reverse of the board that complete the implementation of the Class A feature.

 

[Nonick]

How to check implemented DAC in Marantz NR1200 by serial number? With Denon its fifth digit from right >7.
Marantz NR1200 unit 1 S.Nr: BJA36210706343
Marantz NR1200 unit 2 S.Nr: BJA36210505643
Which of these could have AK4459 DAC?

 

[PJR918BMW]

Newbie with new Q but maybe new(ish?) info too....

I am in UK and today bought a "B" stock 3700H. I was hoping for an old one. Now I have read 100's of posts on this whole HDMI thing and AKM vs Ti DAC's but I am not 100% sure what I have.

My serial number is DBCGO12114***. Where * = a number.

So that would suggest its one that' s under the magic 7**** BUT in my mind you could read it 114000+?

So I wanted to confirm the date of manufacture ( I thought probably 01/21) and whether old or new DAC/HDMI - and ended up ringing Denon. For some reason was put through to technical dep't and a very helpful chap. He said words to the effect of "ignore serial number and just enter the number into the Denon site to order a dongle for hdmi 2.1. If it goes through you've got an old one if not it will tell you" (I subsequently did this and it went through as needing a dongle)

But when I mentioned the DAC he said he had a statement he could read and I said don't bother I've seen it. He seemed a bit miffed so I said go on. AND he confirmed specifically that the 3700 was now fitted with the Ti DAC PCM5102a ( he used the singular but I didn't query that) . I said so this was to replace the AKM AK4458 and he said yes. No if's buts or maybes.

Now to be fair to him he was in Technical and not customer services but there appeared to be zero attempt to duck the issue.

FWIW. But does anybody know if the date of manufacture is the first four digits of the serial number?

I found the site a few weeks ago and my hat off to Amir - it's absolutely excellent! Now I'm off to donate a few coppers to the fund

 

[enricoclaudio]

For those looking to check their Denon's, here is how to check if the unit has or not the new HDMI 2.1 board:

Denon HDMI Adapters | Denon™

www.denon.com

 

[bigguyca]

AKM DAC IC's to Return

As noted in another post, per a news release from AKM a selection of samples of AKM DAC IC's are now shipping with mass production promised in the third quarter of 2022.

https://www.akm.com/us/en/about-us/news/2022/20220131-velvetsound/

Since most Denon products aren't available anyway this may not make much difference, but will Denon products later this year, or in early 2023, have the much better AKM DAC IC's?

A page with links to datasheets and evaluation boards for a selection of AKM DAC IC's.

Audio D/A Converters | Audio Components | Products | Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM)

AKM’s audio D/A converters (DACs) provide solutions for high quality audio system with the original digital-analog mixing technology.

www.akm.com

 

[dlaloum]

AKM DAC IC's to Return

As noted in another post, per a news release from AKM a selection of samples of AKM DAC IC's are now shipping with mass production promised in the third quarter of 2022.

https://www.akm.com/us/en/about-us/news/2022/20220131-velvetsound/

Since most Denon products aren't available anyway this may not make much difference, but will Denon products later this year, or in early 2023, have the much better AKM DAC IC's?

A page with links to datasheets and evaluation boards for a selection of AKM DAC IC's.

Audio D/A Converters | Audio Components | Products | Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM)

AKM’s audio D/A converters (DACs) provide solutions for high quality audio system with the original digital-analog mixing technology.

www.akm.com

Depends on where their production lines are at with regards to the relevant boards.... and the lifetime of the specific models involved!