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Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

chris719

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Unfortunately there is some "magic" about AKM DAC's. Of the premium AKM DAC's only the new AK4499 is a current output DAC. The remainder of the AKM DAC's are voltage output DAC's.

Voltage output DAC's are less expensive to implement than current output DAC's. Current output DAC's require I/V converters, which in the case of higher level DAC's should include high performance, more expensive opamps. The added opamps would require more board space, added power, and generate more heat. For the seemly thousands of PRC two-channel DAC's this isn't huge issue, but becomes really significant for multi-channel products.

AKM managed to get very good to excellent performance, and robust 2V output, from a voltage output DAC.

So has Cirrus. I don’t think you have a lot of experience with the industry if you’re missing them, no offense. In fact, Cirrus has capabilities that arguably exceed AKM, they just don’t sell some of these chips to the public. There’s a reason they are an Apple supplier. Take a look at the measurements of CS4398 and CS5381 from 20 years ago, or CS43198 / CS43131. Most of the real innovation has been happening in the low power space.

So, no, I don’t think there is any magic.

AK4458 is a bit better than the closest substitute that Cirrus has at 8ch, though, but I doubt the difference is meaningful.
 
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oupee

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What do You mean by that?
I am figuring out if I Denon 3700h will be audible worse than Purifi amp. Data and other people indicates it will be not. Can You explain Your point of view?
https://res.cloudinary.com/hqxyevlf...to,w_750/v1536673163/gl7wtxtbxuoh1plaxn7w.jpg
It is really easy. This is a caravan. It has great power, torque, you can sleep, swim, pee and poop, watch TV, drive on the road, drive on the highway and even the racing circuit. It has many uses as an AVR but will never replace a nice house with a beautiful bathroom, toilet and bedroom.
https://carsalesbase.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Toyota_Supra-US-car-sales-statistics.jpg
This is a much smaller, less powerful and cheaper car. The road, highway and racing circuit will make you happy. If I want to drive, why take a caravan? And now marry people who buy an extremely powerful car like a Lamborghini and attach it to a caravan. Use your own reason.
 

chris719

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I was nervous about the change, wanted to know which one I had. It looks like the actual replacement is unknown, but the numbers Peng posted showed a considerable difference in the THD spec between the two.View attachment 127984View attachment 127985

I highly doubt they will replace an 8 channel IC with a stereo converter. If they were using them in 2ch mode then maybe but that would be awfully sad considering the measurements.
 

SlowCar

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Do you prefer measurements or assumptions? Interpretation of the first tells you the answer is 'probably no'. The post you quoted seems to go by the second. Based on the second, lots of people will tell you there must be a difference, because of theoretical differences. One can buy an expensive amplifier based on those motivations and be perfectly happy with it. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't test these assumptions in a double blind setup or prepare to be disappointed.

What is "propably not" and what stays behind it? Can I check it otherwise than blind testing (which is hard to do without buying these equimpents).

It has many uses as an AVR but will never replace a nice house with a beautiful bathroom, toilet and bedroom.
Can You give more conrecete example? Or at least how to recalculate horse power into SINAD?
 

restorer-john

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Major generalisation without any hard evidence, based on assumptions about the effects of theoretical problems that don't always lead to measurable and/or audible problems.


Do you prefer measurements or assumptions? Interpretation of the first tells you the answer is 'probably no'. The post you quoted seems to go by the second. Based on the second, lots of people will tell you there must be a difference, because of theoretical differences. One can buy an expensive amplifier based on those motivations and be perfectly happy with it. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't test these assumptions in a double blind setup or prepare to be disappointed.

:facepalm:

My bench full of test equipment and my many decades of repairing and tracking down design problems due to compromises in audio gear tells me otherwise. AVRs are the absolute epitome of cost cutting in HiFi.

You are free to assume or believe whatever you like.
 

SlowCar

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My bench full of test equipment and my many decades of repairing and tracking down design problems due to compromises in audio gear tells me otherwise. AVRs are the absolute epitome of cost cutting in HiFi.

Ok, but can We base on specific cases? What are exactly x3700h flaws? Or do You mean oly relability? Please provide full case.
 

oupee

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What is "propably not" and what stays behind it? Can I check it otherwise than blind testing (which is hard to do without buying these equimpents).


Can You give more conrecete example? Or at least how to recalculate horse power into SINAD?
When you want to listen to stereo, the entire AVR turns on. Hdmi board, network functions, Heos board, all amplifiers are powered so everything is thermally stressed as if you were playing a multi-channel. SINAD is useless in itself. The crosstalk between the AVR's channels is huge, so the stereo scene sucks, SINAD says nothing about the dynamics, the transient and the details. This would have to measure the slew rate, squarewave, etc. On the contrary,

I will ask. Can you explain to me how SINAD affects the sound?
 

SlowCar

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When you want to listen to stereo, the entire AVR turns on. Hdmi board, network functions, Heos board, all amplifiers are powered so everything is thermally stressed as if you were playing a multi-channel. SINAD is useless in itself. The crosstalk between the AVR's channels is huge, so the stereo scene sucks, SINAD says nothing about the dynamics, the transient and the details. This would have to measure the slew rate, squarewave, etc. On the contrary

So You are saying that there are things which are not measured/provided in those reviews? And their impact will make audible differences?

I will ask. Can you explain to me how SINAD affects the sound?

No, I cannot. I'm coming here to find out what has best value for me. So I am taking into considereation what is reagerded on this forum. Sinad measurment is one of them.
 

Macfox

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I've got a Denon x3700h on order right now, should I open it up and see what DAC's it has when I get it?
No need to ask, we all know the answer: definitely!
 

Macfox

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:facepalm:
My bench full of test equipment and my many decades of repairing and tracking down design problems due to compromises in audio gear tells me otherwise. AVRs are the absolute epitome of cost cutting in HiFi.

You are free to assume or believe whatever you like.
and
When you want to listen to stereo, the entire AVR turns on. Hdmi board, network functions, Heos board, all amplifiers are powered so everything is thermally stressed as if you were playing a multi-channel. SINAD is useless in itself. The crosstalk between the AVR's channels is huge, so the stereo scene sucks, SINAD says nothing about the dynamics, the transient and the details. This would have to measure the slew rate, squarewave, etc. On the contrary,

I will ask. Can you explain to me how SINAD affects the sound?
Yes we can agree that AVR's are subject to cost minimizing and aren't the best place to start for absolute best theoretical performance. That wasn't the question though. The question was whether the actual differences were audible. The best way to answer that question is by looking at measurements, assuming measurement devices are more sensitive than human hearing. Because the human hearing has its limitations, because good circuit design can maximize component performance and because components are nowadays far better than necessary to be sonically transparant, some AVR's manage to keep their limitations outside of the audible domain. The AVC-X3700H is one of them.
The only caveat is that this only goes for situations where the amplifier isn't stressed beyond its capabilities (e.g. no extreme load or power output).
A higher end stereo/mono (pre)amplifier with excellent components and circuit design (the latter isn't always the case...) will still perform measurably better, but not necessarily audibly so.

Regarding slew rate: if an amplifier doesn't have the appropriate slew rate, it won't have low distortion @20K Hz at its rated power. Conversely, if it has low distortion @ 20K Hz at rated power, it apparently has an adequate slew rate.
 

Macfox

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that is to say ? the x3700 are therefore not concerned?
No, that is to say: we are all very interested in the DAC that's used in the new 3700
 

Macfox

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if I understood correctly, we don't know which Dac is used in the 3700 ?
Correct, we don't know which DAC is (temporarily?) replacing the AKM AK4458VN used in several models, including the 3700.
 

Macfox

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Depends on the replacement they've used and the way they've implemented it. That's why we're so curious to know what's inside these new models :)
 

peng

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chris719

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May be may be not. It depends, for example if the replacement is the AK4468 then it is not bad news. If they go back to the PCM1690 that was used before the AK4458 then it isn't so good.:)

AKM releases high-quality multi-channel D/A converter utilizing audio-optimized LSI manufacturing process | News | ABOUT AKM | Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM)

The results Denon gets are not that much better than you could expect from a perfectly implemented PCM1690. I would guess it's not AK4468 since it was harder to get before the fire. Either way, probably not going to have much practical difference. The AVR DAC measurements are mostly a contest to see how much worse than the datasheet can the manufacturer do ;).
 

peng

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The results Denon gets are not that much better than you could expect from a perfectly implemented PCM1690. I would guess it's not AK4468 since it was harder to get before the fire. Either way, probably not going to have much practical difference. The AVR DAC measurements are mostly a contest to see how much worse than the datasheet can the manufacturer do ;).

Agreed, and I am sure I cannot hear a difference due to a few dB SINAD difference. It is more about the feeling, that if I know the parts/components have better specs and all else being equal, then I have a reason to imagine the theoretically difference. To exaggerate this 100X, I found my systems would even sound better (or just more enjoyable I guess) every time after I tidied things up, a good wipe down, checked/tighten all connections, re-arrange the tangled wires for the best possible separation, a good vacuum etc..:D
 
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