Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[Zooqu1ko]

So I'm in the market for a HDMI 2.1 capable AVR. My current Yamaha A2070 doesn't have that capability, and now that I have a 4K 120 VRR screen (Sony A80J), and a PS5, I'm in need of a new AVR.

Have you considered connecting your PS5 directly to your TV and using an EARC extractor to get the audio into your Yamaha?

 

[dlaloum]

So I'm in the market for a HDMI 2.1 capable AVR. My current Yamaha A2070 doesn't have that capability, and now that I have a 4K 120 VRR screen (Sony A80J), and a PS5, I'm in need of a new AVR.

I've been looking at the Onkyo RZ50, which appears to measure and perform quite well, though it appears that Dirac is a bit buggy, at least when trying to make measurements (apparently it's depending on Dirac servers in the cloud - which are often offline). It does have 3 40gbps HDMI 2.1 ports, so that's great.

Read through this whole thread (all 25 pages), and the decision for D+M to got for an inferior chip (on paper anyway) to replace the AK4458 is... interesting. I was pretty set on a Denon probaby being my next AVR, given how well they measure (apparently as good as it gets in AVR land), and I do like some of the features they offer, including Audyssey EQ (I always use the similar YPAO EQ on my Yamaha). Such a feature doesn't exist on the RZ50, or at least, it can't be used under all circumstances (including when Dirac is enabled).

What's the likelihood of a X4800 coming out this year, and do we think they'll revert to AKM DACs? (I know, it's a wild shot in the dark, lol).

I have had no issues with Dirac connecting to the cloud or otherwise... found it to be more thorough and effective than Audyssey, and the PC interface made tuning easy... - I am using the Integra DRX3.4 - baby brother of the RZ50. - I don't expect them to be different in this sense.

D&M are in the same boat with their Xx800 generation as Onkyo are with their flagship RZ70/RZ90 models - everyone knows they are coming - no one knows when, and no one knows what the feature sets will be.

There are rumours that D&M will be jumping boat to Dirac, also rumours of new DIrac features (Dirac Unison?) - for the Onkyo family.

Assuming D&M want to go back to their preferred chip supplier - AKM, AKM has announced mass produced chip batches for 4th qtr only - so probably no AVR's before 2023 - which is probably where Onkyo are at with their RZ70/RZ90's....

 

[starfly]

Have you considered connecting your PS5 directly to your TV and using an EARC extractor to get the audio into your Yamaha?

I have, but that requires buying a $500+ device from HDFury (the only one that fully supports HDMI 2.1). That's too much money to me for a single-purpose device like that; then I'd rather splurge on a new AVR (which I know costs even more money, but I'd get a bunch of other new features in return as well).

 

[starfly]

I have had no issues with Dirac connecting to the cloud or otherwise... found it to be more thorough and effective than Audyssey, and the PC interface made tuning easy... - I am using the Integra DRX3.4 - baby brother of the RZ50. - I don't expect them to be different in this sense.

D&M are in the same boat with their Xx800 generation as Onkyo are with their flagship RZ70/RZ90 models - everyone knows they are coming - no one knows when, and no one knows what the feature sets will be.

There are rumours that D&M will be jumping boat to Dirac, also rumours of new DIrac features (Dirac Unison?) - for the Onkyo family.

Assuming D&M want to go back to their preferred chip supplier - AKM, AKM has announced mass produced chip batches for 4th qtr only - so probably no AVR's before 2023 - which is probably where Onkyo are at with their RZ70/RZ90's....

Yeah, I'm on the fence whether I should just get a RZ50 now, or wait for RZ70 or Denon X4800. I think I'd miss a feature like Audyssey EQ (my current Yamaha has YPAO Volume, which works the same way by boosting lows/highs at lower volumes so you still get a full range sound at lower volumes), and from my research so far it appears that while Onkyo offers a similar feature (THX something), it apparently doesn't work with Dirac enabled, which defeates the purpose to me. Otherwise the RZ50 ticks all the other boxes, with 3 40gbps HDMI 2.1 inputs.

 

[dlaloum]

Yeah, I'm on the fence whether I should just get a RZ50 now, or wait for RZ70 or Denon X4800. I think I'd miss a feature like Audyssey EQ (my current Yamaha has YPAO Volume, which works the same way by boosting lows/highs at lower volumes so you still get a full range sound at lower volumes), and from my research so far it appears that while Onkyo offers a similar feature (THX something), it apparently doesn't work with Dirac enabled, which defeates the purpose to me. Otherwise the RZ50 ticks all the other boxes, with 3 40gbps HDMI 2.1 inputs.

No not quite- there is a "loudness" equalisation feature which is built into Dolby Surround - so when Onkyo purchased the licence from dolby they got that...

You go into the quick settings and set things to "late night" to activate compression, and via the configuration menus you can activate Dolby Loudness Management.

The downside, is that these features only work if Dolby Surround is the chosen processing mode - if you run in the DTS modes that doesn't work

But Dirac is definitely active.

The nice thing with Audyssey, is that the loudness and compression features are part of the RoomEQ, and therefore apply regardless of the decoder chose.... tomAto / tOmatO...

Key thing is - the feature are indeed there - and I use them regularly for nightime listening/viewing

 

[starfly]

No not quite- there is a "loudness" equalisation feature which is built into Dolby Surround - so when Onkyo purchased the licence from dolby they got that...

You go into the quick settings and set things to "late night" to activate compression, and via the configuration menus you can activate Dolby Loudness Management.

The downside, is that these features only work if Dolby Surround is the chosen processing mode - if you run in the DTS modes that doesn't work

But Dirac is definitely active.

The nice thing with Audyssey, is that the loudness and compression features are part of the RoomEQ, and therefore apply regardless of the decoder chose.... tomAto / tOmatO...

Key thing is - the feature are indeed there - and I use them regularly for nightime listening/viewing

Does that also work when playing back stereo music?

 

[tjcinnamon]

I have, but that requires buying a $500+ device from HDFury (the only one that fully supports HDMI 2.1). That's too much money to me for a single-purpose device like that; then I'd rather splurge on a new AVR (which I know costs even more money, but I'd get a bunch of other new features in return as well).

I use a SHARC by ThenAudio. It’s the same company as HDFury. I think that’s $200? I’ve been using it for 2 years now and have HDMI 2.1 features with my old AVR.

 

[starfly]

I use a SHARC by ThenAudio. It’s the same company as HDFury. I think that’s $200? I’ve been using it for 2 years now and have HDMI 2.1 features with my old AVR.

And that solves your audio delay issues? That's really my main issue right now when going from PS5 > TV > AVR (either ARC or optical).

 

[peng]

Is the difference in SINAD material/audible?

It depends.. My guess is that if the measured SINAD at the pre out drops a few dB to say just below 90, the difference won't be audible except under some specific applications/situations. We won't know what SINAD to expect as the worst case until one such unit get tested. By the way, since you are coming from an A2070, keep in mind that Audyssey will likely remove the bass bumps due to room gain so you may (or may not) find the sound "thinner" as reported by some forum posters. If that happens, you can fix that quite easily using the $20 MultEQ Editor App to customize the target curve.

 

[tjcinnamon]

And that solves your audio delay issues? That's really my main issue right now when going from PS5 > TV > AVR (either ARC or optical).

Yeah, I don’t have any delay issues with it

 

[tjcinnamon]

It depends.. My guess is that if the measured SINAD at the pre out drops a few dB to say just below 90, the difference won't be audible except under some specific applications/situations. We won't know what SINAD to expect as the worst case until one such unit get tested. By the way, since you are coming from an A2070, keep in mind that Audyssey will likely remove the bass bumps due to room gain so you may (or may not) find the sound "thinner" as reported by some forum posters. If that happens, you can fix that quite easily using the $20 MultEQ Editor App to customize the target curve.

I’m coming from Dirac via the NAD758v3. I’ve always thought Dirac sounded thin.

 

[starfly]

Yeah, I don’t have any delay issues with it

Ok cool, let me give that SHARC a try ($220 is much more palatable than $500+), see if it solves my problem. I'll probably still want a new AVR, but it means I can now just wait to see when the X4800 comes out and wait for reviews, etc, instead of having a more urgent need for a new one.

 

[peng]

I’m coming from Dirac via the NAD758v3. I’ve always thought Dirac sounded thin.

In my case I found that Dirac (mine is the PC standalone version)'s default target curve is quite flat too but Audyssey's ref curve is a little worse, in my case the measured response actually sloped downwards from about 100 Hz. Your system is going to behave its own way anyway, so you are going to have a different measured response. My point is just in case you don't like the flat bass, don't give up on the Denon yet, because you can edit the target curve to your liking.

DL3 default target curve REW measured response vs Audyssey reference curve, unedited:

 

[tjcinnamon]

In my case I found that Dirac (mine is the PC standalone version)'s default target curve is quite flat too but Audyssey's ref curve is a little worse, in my case the measured response actually sloped downwards from about 100 Hz. Your system is going to behave its own way anyway, so you are going to have a different measured response. My point is just in case you don't like the flat bass, don't give up on the Denon yet, because you can edit the target curve to your liking.

DL3 default target curve REW measured response vs Audyssey reference curve, unedited:

Not only am I not giving up…. I’m ordering a 4700 tomorrow!

 

[dlaloum]

Does that also work when playing back stereo music?

Yes - but you are passing it throug the upmixer - so it will be a surround mix of Stereo - the upmixer is very good - but it won't be pure stereo.

 

[dlaloum]

I’m coming from Dirac via the NAD758v3. I’ve always thought Dirac sounded thin.

You can adjust the target curve - especially easy with the PC app rather than the smartphone app...

 

[Zooqu1ko]

I have, but that requires buying a $500+ device from HDFury (the only one that fully supports HDMI 2.1). That's too much money to me for a single-purpose device like that; then I'd rather splurge on a new AVR (which I know costs even more money, but I'd get a bunch of other new features in return as well).

No HDMI 2.1 EARC extractor needed. Connect the PS5 directly to the TV, connect a cheap EARC extractor to the EARC output of the TV, and the audio out HDMI of the extractor to your AVR.

 

[tjcinnamon]

My X4700 should be delivered end of the week. Coming from Dirac with an NAD 758v3. Prior to that a Marantz 7012. Looking forward to having DEQ back in my life.
I’ll run this in full PreOut mode and definitely purchase the MQX product.
Hopefully the HDMI 2.1 VRR 120Hz works well with my PC (RTX3090 -> LG C9).

 

[Bleib]

No HDMI 2.1 EARC extractor needed. Connect the PS5 directly to the TV, connect a cheap EARC extractor to the EARC output of the TV, and the audio out HDMI of the extractor to your AVR.

Any example of what to purchase?

 

[Zooqu1ko]

Any example of what to purchase?

Just search for "EARC audio extractor" and check that it supports Atmos and DTS-X. This might work: https://www.amazon.com/Extractor-Splitter-Dedicated-extracting-Supports/dp/B093K6FHQM