Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[Brambo67]

And here Onkyo opts for the TI PCM1690 (x 2?) for main and PCM 5101 for the zone's in their new TX-RZ50;

 

[Brambo67]

And here Onkyo opts for the TI PCM1690 (x 2?) for main and PCM 5101 for the zone's in their new TX-RZ50;

So, interesting to see how the TI-PCM1690 DAC is performing in Amir’s TX-RZ50 review… it stretches SINAD beyond official TI-specs. 97/98 dB where theoretically it should bring no more than 94 in 8-channel setup.

 

[amansangar]

Does anyone know if they changed the DAC for the denon A110 and 8500H from the AKM dac

 

[Everett T]

Does anyone know if they changed the DAC for the denon A110 and 8500H from the AKM dac

Search feature is your friend, but it appears that they are still AKM.

 

[peng]

So, interesting to see how the TI-PCM1690 DAC is performing in Amir’s TX-RZ50 review… it stretches SINAD beyond official TI-specs. 97/98 dB where theoretically it should bring no more than 94 in 8-channel setup.

May be the one Amir tested had the AK4458, i.e. before they ran out.

Or for those with the PCM1690, they might have used the surplus channels on the 2 chips to implement differential (like the DRA-800H) for the FL/FR channels to gain a few dB SINAD.

Like most DACs, the PCM1690 can do differential outputs according to the data sheet:

https://www.ti.com/product/PCM1690

 

[Brambo67]

May be the one Amir tested had the AK4458, i.e. before they ran out.

Or for those with the PCM1690, they might have used the surplus channels on the 2 chips to implement differential (like the DRA-800H) for the FL/FR channels to gain a few dB SINAD.

Like most DACs, the PCM1690 can do differential outputs according to the data sheet:

https://www.ti.com/product/PCM1690

View attachment 191450

Wasn't the Onkyo equiped right from it's start with the PCM1690? And I understand the 1690 is working in a different mode in the Denon 800. But in the Onkyo I can't see hat happen as there are only two of these PCM 1690 DAC's. This is what I found on www.audionet.tw:
"Dual DSP chip" digital audio processing
The following explains the hardware structure of this machine. The TX-RZ50 is equipped with "dual DSPs" in the digital audio processing circuit: one of them is Cirrus Logic CS49844A, and the other is TI Aureus TMS320DA808 (D808K013DPTP5). Previous Onkyo models of the same level used them for multi-channel or music file decoding and playback , THX post-processing and AccuEQ digital sound field correction, this time into Dirac Live.

After the digital audio processing, two DAC chips are used in the digital-to-class conversion circuit of the machine. The main 7.1 channel uses a TI 192kHz/24bit Multi-Level ΔΣ 8-channel DAC chip TI PCM1690 (dynamic range 113 dB), and the secondary channel uses a TI PCM1690 (dynamic range 113 dB). The main channels (including surround back or Zone2 / Zone3) are two two-channel DAC chips TI PCM5101A (dynamic range 106 dB).

After the DAC chip, the machine continues to use its own patented VLSC technology as before: combining a comparator and a vector generator to regenerate an audio waveform without digital noise, replacing the typical analog filter circuit. The amplifying element used in the small-signal audio circuit after the DAC chip is the JRC NJM4580 dual OP Amp chip with broadband, low noise and low distortion characteristics.

 

[peng]

Wasn't the Onkyo equiped right from it's start with the PCM1690? And I understand the 1690 is working in a different mode in the Denon 800. But in the Onkyo I can't see hat happen as there are only two of these PCM 1690 DAC's.

The Onkyo has 12 discrete channels not 13 assuming (could be wrong, I forgot where I read that from), counting the subwoofer channel. So with the 2 PCM1690 there should be two 3 extra channels that makes it possible to implement differential output for the FL and FR, and I was careful saying they might, not that they had done so. Like you, I was wondering how they could have scored 97 dB on Amir's bench.

Having read the datasheet in more details, I have additional thoughts:

The 94 dB is typical, max is -88 dB, min. not specified. Take a look of the following pasted from the data sheet:

So depending on the test conditions, such as the operating temperature at the time, the power supply voltage, and the input voltage, -97 dB could in fact be attainable if all the stars aligned. There is also margin of error to consider as well.

Still, the Denon models that have the AK4458 did much better in SINAD at lower output voltage if compare the SINAD vs output voltage graphs. Under normal use, for a lot of people the performance at the below 1 V level is important.

This is what I found on www.audionet.tw:
"Dual DSP chip" digital audio processing
The following explains the hardware structure of this machine. The TX-RZ50 is equipped with "dual DSPs" in the digital audio processing circuit: one of them is Cirrus Logic CS49844A, and the other is TI Aureus TMS320DA808 (D808K013DPTP5). Previous Onkyo models of the same level used them for multi-channel or music file decoding and playback , THX post-processing and AccuEQ digital sound field correction, this time into Dirac Live.

After the digital audio processing, two DAC chips are used in the digital-to-class conversion circuit of the machine. The main 7.1 channel uses a TI 192kHz/24bit Multi-Level ΔΣ 8-channel DAC chip TI PCM1690 (dynamic range 113 dB), and the secondary channel uses a TI PCM1690 (dynamic range 113 dB). The main channels (including surround back or Zone2 / Zone3) are two two-channel DAC chips TI PCM5101A (dynamic range 106 dB).

After the DAC chip, the machine continues to use its own patented VLSC technology as before: combining a comparator and a vector generator to regenerate an audio waveform without digital noise, replacing the typical analog filter circuit. The amplifying element used in the small-signal audio circuit after the DAC chip is the JRC NJM4580 dual OP Amp chip with broadband, low noise and low distortion characteristics.

Thank you for the link but for some reason it did not work for me.

 

[MissionImp]

Good afternoon folks, my first post here.

I’ve read through the posts and distractions, but haven’t seen anyone post a definitive description of the new DACs. Did I miss it, or hasn’t anyone managed to find out what they’ve replaced the V.1 X4700H’s DAC’s with yet?

Thanks

 

[tjcinnamon]

Good afternoon folks, my first post here.

I’ve read through the posts and distractions, but haven’t seen anyone post a definitive description of the new DACs. Did I miss it, or hasn’t anyone managed to find out what they’ve replaced the V.1 X4700H’s DAC’s with yet?

Thanks

Same

 

[dlaloum]

Same

TI's PCM series - cannot remember the model... Think it was PCM5102

 

[tjcinnamon]

TI's PCM series - cannot remember the model... Think it was PCM5102

Thanks for responding. I’ve done some more digging and I don’t think that’s confirmed yet. I called Best Buy magnolia and they weren’t sure

 

[rvsixer]

An exchange I had with Best Buy once:
What's the frequency response of this unit?
It says 50-60Hz on the back.

 

[peng]

Thanks for responding. I’ve done some more digging and I don’t think that’s confirmed yet. I called Best Buy magnolia and they weren’t sure

There were some evidence presented by at least one ASR member if I remember right.. Below is one:

Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

Damn, this is more entertaining than any of the films I'm watching via my 3700h. I bought it just a few weeks ago, and my serial number has a '6' as the fifth digit. Do we know for certain it's prior to the DAC swap? I thought the '7's were after April/May this year, whereas the fire took place...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

Damn, this is more entertaining than any of the films I'm watching via my 3700h. I bought it just a few weeks ago, and my serial number has a '6' as the fifth digit. Do we know for certain it's prior to the DAC swap? I thought the '7's were after April/May this year, whereas the fire took place...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Doodski]

An exchange I had with Best Buy once:
What's the frequency response of this unit?
It says 50-60Hz on the back.

The positioning of Best Buy as a survivor in the demise of so many home audio big box dealers and brick and mortar businesses baffles me. Best Buy Canada has clerks rather than sales specialists for sales help that apparently have little knowledge of the product and are there to assist finding the product and as I experienced attempt to hard sell me on confirmation of whether I want product or not. My previous experience in retail audio sales included 4 springtime months per year of Tuesday and Thursday nights sales training meetings for ~3 hours each night, constant personalized communication with sales reps and proper management that where experts in the home audio. How Best Buy Canada can operate in this clerky manner is beyond my business sense and I suspect Best Buy Canada is taking advantage of the market situation where there is no competition anymore.

 

[tjcinnamon]

An exchange I had with Best Buy once:
What's the frequency response of this unit?
It says 50-60Hz on the back.

I didn’t want to bag on the employees in case, in the off chance, there was a knowledgeable one on the forum… but alas there are no unicorns in the forum

I was just hoping some company memo came out. One time I met a Sony rep there and I ended up being the first person (on the forums) to bring up the Z9D.

Shot in the dark. I’m still likely getting an X4700 irrespective of the DAC. Coming from an NAD758v3 with Dirac but this will have native HDMI 2.1 and I’ll definitely get Audyssey MQX.

 

[tjcinnamon]

There were some evidence presented by at least one ASR member if I remember right.. Below is one:

Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

Damn, this is more entertaining than any of the films I'm watching via my 3700h. I bought it just a few weeks ago, and my serial number has a '6' as the fifth digit. Do we know for certain it's prior to the DAC swap? I thought the '7's were after April/May this year, whereas the fire took place...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

Damn, this is more entertaining than any of the films I'm watching via my 3700h. I bought it just a few weeks ago, and my serial number has a '6' as the fifth digit. Do we know for certain it's prior to the DAC swap? I thought the '7's were after April/May this year, whereas the fire took place...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Is the difference in SINAD material/audible?

 

[starfly]

So I'm in the market for a HDMI 2.1 capable AVR. My current Yamaha A2070 doesn't have that capability, and now that I have a 4K 120 VRR screen (Sony A80J), and a PS5, I'm in need of a new AVR.

I've been looking at the Onkyo RZ50, which appears to measure and perform quite well, though it appears that Dirac is a bit buggy, at least when trying to make measurements (apparently it's depending on Dirac servers in the cloud - which are often offline). It does have 3 40gbps HDMI 2.1 ports, so that's great.

Read through this whole thread (all 25 pages), and the decision for D+M to got for an inferior chip (on paper anyway) to replace the AK4458 is... interesting. I was pretty set on a Denon probaby being my next AVR, given how well they measure (apparently as good as it gets in AVR land), and I do like some of the features they offer, including Audyssey EQ (I always use the similar YPAO EQ on my Yamaha). Such a feature doesn't exist on the RZ50, or at least, it can't be used under all circumstances (including when Dirac is enabled).

What's the likelihood of a X4800 coming out this year, and do we think they'll revert to AKM DACs? (I know, it's a wild shot in the dark, lol).

 

[tjcinnamon]

Just got off with Denon support and they said it’s still the AKM4458 but I don’t think that’s correct. He also didn’t know about the fire at AKM

 

[tjcinnamon]

So I'm in the market for a HDMI 2.1 capable AVR. My current Yamaha A2070 doesn't have that capability, and now that I have a 4K 120 VRR screen (Sony A80J), and a PS5, I'm in need of a new AVR.

I've been looking at the Onkyo RZ50, which appears to measure and perform quite well, though it appears that Dirac is a bit buggy, at least when trying to make measurements (apparently it's depending on Dirac servers in the cloud - which are often offline). It does have 3 40gbps HDMI 2.1 ports, so that's great.

Read through this whole thread (all 25 pages), and the decision for D+M to got for an inferior chip (on paper anyway) to replace the AK4458 is... interesting. I was pretty set on a Denon probaby being my next AVR, given how well they measure (apparently as good as it gets in AVR land), and I do like some of the features they offer, including Audyssey EQ (I always use the similar YPAO EQ on my Yamaha). Such a feature doesn't exist on the RZ50, or at least, it can't be used under all circumstances (including when Dirac is enabled).

What's the likelihood of a X4800 coming out this year, and do we think they'll revert to AKM DACs? (I know, it's a wild shot in the dark, lol).

Also, no info on the 4800 from support.

 

[dlaloum]

I didn’t want to bag on the employees in case, in the off chance, there was a knowledgeable one on the forum… but alas there are no unicorns in the forum

I was just hoping some company memo came out. One time I met a Sony rep there and I ended up being the first person (on the forums) to bring up the Z9D.

Shot in the dark. I’m still likely getting an X4700 irrespective of the DAC. Coming from an NAD758v3 with Dirac but this will have native HDMI 2.1 and I’ll definitely get Audyssey MQX.

I look forward to your review of going from Dirac to Audyssey....