Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[dlaloum]

Apparently AKM has started up production at their new facility - this will presumably take some time to work its way from AKM through the logistics chain toe D&M and then to retail.

I would bet on 6 months

best case estimation - at least 1 month from AKM to D&M manufacturer, 1 Month from D&M factory to Distributors at least a further 2 weeks for distribution to retail - so an absolute minimum of 2.5 months lag, without accounting for manufacturing time.... prioritisation of the various production lines, competition between customers for the AKM chips etc....

 

[Masza]

I doubt x700 series will see AKM DACs anymore. I mean those models which already have probably re-engineered boards due to the previous DAC change. But hopefully x800 will get those AKM DACs.

 

[peng]

I think it is easy for D+M to switch back because I am sure they have inventory and there is no need to re-engineer anything. They stopped using the AKM chips probably because they don't want to use up the inventory that they have to keep above a minimum number but as soon as they know AKM has resumed production then they can start planning on switching back. I do agree it will have some lead time, a few months may be enough.

 

[alik1006]

Apparently AKM has started up production at their new facility - this will presumably take some time to work its way from AKM through the logistics chain toe D&M and then to retail.

I would bet on 6 months

best case estimation - at least 1 month from AKM to D&M manufacturer, 1 Month from D&M factory to Distributors at least a further 2 weeks for distribution to retail - so an absolute minimum of 2.5 months lag, without accounting for manufacturing time.... prioritisation of the various production lines, competition between customers for the AKM chips etc....

+ extra time for communication and collection of evidence to confirm that it is truly AKM
+ extra time to sell inventory of inferior DAC
+ extra time to "trickle down" from top level overpriced models

I do not think we should expect anything earlier than the end of 2022 before it can even be re-tested.
But of course, nobody knows and it is just a speculation. FWIW we can see X8500HA-PLUS next week.

 

[K man]

I doubt x700 series will see AKM DACs anymore. I mean those models which already have probably re-engineered boards due to the previous DAC change. But hopefully x800 will get those AKM DACs.

That does seem like the most reasonable to me. Normally Denon release their new series around or after summer, right? That's about half a year from now. Why should they then go through the business and political hassle of another change, which they need to announce, motivate and explain.

From a business perspective it makes most sense to just keep things the way they are until next series.

 

[peng]

But of course, nobody knows and it is just a speculation. FWIW we can see X8500HA-PLUS next week.

Can see what? Please tell me more.

 

[SoundsGood64]

Some in this thread will be interested in recent posts in this thread: Denon DRA-800H Review (Stereo Receiver).

The original DRA-800H had AKM4458 for the Main Zone in dual differential mode, as well as two additional DAC ICs, "Network (Z2) PCM5100A" and "Downmix PCM5100A". Denon has a revision now in which the AK4458 has been replaced with a PCM1690, documented in the above thread by photo and with measurements.

 

[ianh]

Ironic that I specifically looked for a post May 21 copy of a x3700h and was happy to find one on Friday, now I wonder if it maybe a mistake. Has anyone actually listened back to back to both the original and new versions who could comment on any perceived differences?

 

[peng]

Some in this thread will be interested in recent posts in this thread: Denon DRA-800H Review (Stereo Receiver).

The original DRA-800H had AKM4458 for the Main Zone in dual differential mode, as well as two additional DAC ICs, "Network (Z2) PCM5100A" and "Downmix PCM5100A". Denon has a revision now in which the AK4458 has been replaced with a PCM1690, documented in the above thread by photo and with measurements.

It seems that we now know a lot about this receiver thanks to you and @User_22 , but in my opinion it only reinforced my original thought that whoever designed/market this product missed the opportunity. They put in a good DAC (originally) and buffer OPA and implemented it with differential connections yet they did not include the pre outs. That wouldn't be bad if the amp section is good, but it is not, according to the measurements it is about as good as the old entry level Denon AVR-X2200.

The Marantz version is much better because one can at least use it as a preamp/DAC.

 

[peng]

Ironic that I specifically looked for a post May 21 copy of a x3700h and was happy to find one on Friday, now I wonder if it maybe a mistake. Has anyone actually listened back to back to both the original and new versions who could comment on any perceived differences?

The problem is you even if many people would respond to your question, they would most likely offer their subjective opinions only. I do recall one member has in fact listened to both and if I remember right he didn't really pick a clear winner as such. The chance for anyone who have listened to both under a reasonably well controlled apple to apple comparison is about zero.

If you can confirm your unit has the AK4458, then you know it will have better performance (based on specs and measurements) than the one that supposedly has the PCM5102A. In that case I can't see how it could be a mistake, I mean relative to getting one with the no so good DAC.

 

[Guenselmann]

A few weeks later Denon Germany support confirmed to me via E-mail what we already knew, which is that AVC-X3700H with serial number:
smaller than xxxxxxx70000 has AK4458,
larger than xxxxxxx70000 has PCM5102A.

 

[ianh]

Turns

The problem is you even if many people would respond to your question, they would most likely offer their subjective opinions only. I do recall one member has in fact listened to both and if I remember right he didn't really pick a clear winner as such. The chance for anyone who have listened to both under a reasonably well controlled apple to apple comparison is about zero.

If you can confirm your unit has the AK4458, then you know it will have better performance (based on specs and measurements) than the one that supposedly has the PCM5102A. In that case I can't see how it could be a mistake, I mean relative to getting one with the no so good DAC.

I found a post on this forum where someone had both versions and ironically preferred the new one! The unit I now have which was supposed to be the new one is actually confirmed by Denon to be the old one. Not sure if that’s good or bad! Will probably devalue it a bit unless the new ones really turn out to be much worse.

 

[Masza]

I found a post on this forum where someone had both versions and ironically preferred the new one! The unit I now have which was supposed to be the new one is actually confirmed by Denon to be the old one. Not sure if that’s good or bad! Will probably devalue it a bit unless the new ones really turn out to be much worse.

Maybe they changed some other components as well?

 

[peng]

Turns

I found a post on this forum where someone had both versions and ironically preferred the new one! The unit I now have which was supposed to be the new one is actually confirmed by Denon to be the old one. Not sure if that’s good or bad! Will probably devalue it a bit unless the new ones really turn out to be much worse.

Congrats! Keep yours unless someone offers you more than what you paid. The AK4458's SINAD is 15 dB better than the PCM5102A. The difference would likely be not audible to most users but all else being equal I would always prefer the one with better specs and measurements regardless.

 

[ianh]

The 5th digit of the serial number on my X3700H is a 1 (<7). Does anyone know if there is a way to find out the manufacture date for these units? For example I have seen elsewhere that the first digits may indicate this MMYY, in my case it is DBCG1220 which may suggest Dec/2020.

 

[ianh]

The 5th digit of the serial number on my X3700H is a 1 (<7). Does anyone know if there is a way to find out the manufacture date for these units? For example I have seen elsewhere that the first digits may indicate this MMYY, in my case it is DBCG1220 which may suggest Dec/2020.

I asked Denon support this question and they said there is no way to find out when a unit was made from the serial number. They confirmed the DAC change and HDMI fix happened coincidentally in May 21. I will stop investigating this now, the unit I have sounds ok for me. I also suspect the one with the TI DACs would have been fine. I will get one of the HDMI switchers just in case I ever need to connect 4K/120 or 8k 2.1 devices.

 

[Brambo67]

It seems that we now know a lot about this receiver thanks to you and @User_22 , but in my opinion it only reinforced my original thought that whoever designed/market this product missed the opportunity. They put in a good DAC (originally) and buffer OPA and implemented it with differential connections yet they did not include the pre outs. That wouldn't be bad if the amp section is good, but it is not, according to the measurements it is about as good as the old entry level Denon AVR-X2200.

The Marantz version is much better because one can at least use it as a preamp/DAC.

So is it safe to assume the revised AVC’s with the TI DAC’s can perform much better than many expected in this thread? It seems the PCM1690 doesn’t at all perform that much worse compared to the AKM’s.

Interesting picture from right after the 4700 and 6700 launch, it seems the 4700 MAIN DAC-board is similar to the one in the 4500. Clearly the pic from the DENON.JP site is an updated MAIN DAC-board (different lay-out) Still two 8-channel DAC’s it seems so 2 x PCM1690?

 

[Oski1997]

I asked Denon support this question and they said there is no way to find out when a unit was made from the serial number. They confirmed the DAC change and HDMI fix happened coincidentally in May 21. I will stop investigating this now, the unit I have sounds ok for me. I also suspect the one with the TI DACs would have been fine. I will get one of the HDMI switchers just in case I ever need to connect 4K/120 or 8k 2.1 devices.

I got a VS3003 switcher for the same reason

 

[peng]

So is it safe to assume the revised AVC’s with the TI DAC’s can perform much better than many expected in this thread? It seems the PCM1690 doesn’t at all perform that much worse compared to the AKM’s.

Interesting picture from right after the 4700 and 6700 launch, it seems the 4700 MAIN DAC-board is similar to the one in the 4500. Clearly the pic from the DENON.JP site is an updated MAIN DAC-board (different lay-out) Still two 8-channel DAC’s it seems so 2 x PCM1690?

I really don't know, as you may know I have posted the original DAC board for the 4700 side by side with the supposedly new one more than once on this forum and cautioned that it looked like an 8 channel chip with 48 pins, same as the AK4458. You are now doing the same I did but the fact is, one member has since use a scope camera to see what the heck it really is and he said it was indeed the rumored PCM5102A. May be those sold in Japan are using the 8 channel DAC ICs, who know, it has been a frustrating exercise for those too curious to get to the bottom of the mystery?

It would be great if our Japanese members could do some investigation for us in Japan, preferable those within driving distance to the Denon or Marantz head office lol....

By the way, if you compare the datasheets, even if it is the PCM1690 (that would contradict with the scope camera's finding), the THD+N of the 1690 is only 1 dB better than the 5102A so there is no way it can measure better than the AVRs that have the AK4458 chips. It's a -107 dB vs -93 dB, a huge gap.

 

[hda]

I got some days ago an email from Marantz Italy about SR8015. They corfirmed me that SR8015 has 8 DAC TI 5102APWR installed