Oski1997
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Yes, for sure if your serial number ends lower than 70,000 it is before the DAC swap
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Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H
- Thread starter bigguyca
- Start date
yeah, I don't know for sure what dac yours has in it, some folks say the akm 4458, but they never advertised it in their marketing materials like the 4700h and 6700h. But your unit was not affected by any dac changes, so the good review amir gave for the 3700h still applies to your piece. but yes very interesting. They sell 4mm snake cameras on amazon. If I can get some support in covering the costs, ill crack open my case and investigate what is under my redesigned x4700h, and remove this mystery once and for all. Ill provide my paypal account info for anyone interested in solving this.
Have you try using an external dac that you like and use analog, direct mode and see if you like it better? As we know that would bypass the internal DAC but of course then you cannot use Audyssey.
I’m just thinking about the cost associated with a good DAC, I really don’t like the idea of spending any more than I have to rectify a decision of denons.. Havin said that I feel the $40 I spent on caps is the best money spent per performance as I’ve already rebuilt my crossovers. I get a LOT out of audessey in my room, as it’s basically a square. I can’t rule that out in the future. I just wish I knew what if anything I’m missing here. I can’t side by side compare these units. I bought based on Amira review, and got a new unit after being told it would be an older AKM one. Not to mention external DAC means also an expensive interconnect.
I know nothing about external dacs except portable dac's by audioquest, their dragonfly's. So, i know and believe they make a big difference. what do they run, and what kind of interconnects do they use ie. RCA/Hdmi/toslink? What would you reccommend as a dac that would undoubtedly be better than anything in a receiver, yet not break the bank? how much do they run?
The thing is, i don't know what i am trying to top with an eternal dac. Cuz Denon wants to pretend they haven't been asked 1000 times, and lie about not knowing what's in what they sell. I don't know that i'll ever have the love for the company that i did after this debacle.
- Thread Starter
- #247
AKM DAC IC Availability - The AK4458 is back
It appears that the AK4458, the DAC IC used in the X6700H and X4700H is once again available. The quantities available are unknown. Has Denon just continued to use the AK4458 in some units? An interesting question...
The other AKM DAC IC's used in Denon/Marantz products in the past appear to have been discontinued by AKM as of the middle of 2021. This includes the AK4490 used in the AV8805 and X8500H. What products AKM will produce as replacements isn't clear.
The AK4493, the update to the AK4490, has also been discontinued. It is used the the Monoprice Monolith AK4493. The AK4468, which is (was) the update for the AK4458 is also discontinued. This is as of the middle of 2021.
The AK4458 appears to be the highest performance AKM DAC IC available at present.
It appears that the AK4458, the DAC IC used in the X6700H and X4700H is once again available. The quantities available are unknown. Has Denon just continued to use the AK4458 in some units? An interesting question...
The other AKM DAC IC's used in Denon/Marantz products in the past appear to have been discontinued by AKM as of the middle of 2021. This includes the AK4490 used in the AV8805 and X8500H. What products AKM will produce as replacements isn't clear.
The AK4493, the update to the AK4490, has also been discontinued. It is used the the Monoprice Monolith AK4493. The AK4468, which is (was) the update for the AK4458 is also discontinued. This is as of the middle of 2021.
The AK4458 appears to be the highest performance AKM DAC IC available at present.
Well if this is accurate, it scares the crap out of me, it would imply that the change (whatever it was) was so detrimental they are going to switch back manufacturing to the AKM 4458. (I own a X4700 V2 w/ a change). What's your source.
I wonder if they even ever changed the dacs in the 4700h and 6700h, (as that was always what was inside) at all. A member showed a pic of his tore down unit built in april or may 2021 and it had AKM.
My unit's S/N indicates it was MFR june 2021.
I wonder if they even ever changed the dacs in the 4700h and 6700h, (as that was always what was inside) at all. A member showed a pic of his tore down unit built in april or may 2021 and it had AKM.
My unit's S/N indicates it was MFR june 2021.
- Thread Starter
- #249
The information on AKM DAC IC availability is a bit contradictory and confusing, but it's clear that the AK4458 is available. You'll have to spend a little time reading the links below.
It's nice to have such a vote of confidence. You could find all this very easily with searches. Going to the AKM website seems an obvious first step, then Digi-Key, which AKM lists as a U.S,. distributor, that said, I'll save you at least some of the trouble.
AKM:
AKM shows the AK4458 on the way, although the websites below indicate that it's available. The AK4490 and AK4493 are more open questions.
Audio D/A Converters | Audio Components | Products | Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM)
AKM’s audio D/A converters (DACs) provide solutions for high quality audio system with the original digital-analog mixing technology.
U.S. Distributor Digi-Key:
Note the status of the products under the price column. The AK4458 is a current product. If you dig into the AK4490 and AK4493 listings you will find letters from the middle of 2021 from AKM saying the two are discontinued. For example for the AK4490:
No doubt both DAC IC's, or their replacements, will be available at some point in the future.
Data Acquisition - ADCs/DACs - Special Purpose | Electronic Components Distributor DigiKey
Data Acquisition - ADCs/DACs - Special Purpose are in stock at DigiKey. Order Now! Integrated Circuits (ICs) ship same day
Arrow:
Lists a price, but no availability.
Heisener:
Heisener is in China as far as I can tell. I've no background information on Heisener, but it does claim to have a lot of inventory, almost 50k pieces.
Search Results ak4458 | Heisener Electronics
Get started by searching our database of over 4 millions products or browse the latest electronic components from latest most innovative manufacturers.
For reference, one U.S. distributor had the AV4458 for a bit under $2.50 before the fire. The AK4490 was a little less.
Dragon fly dacs are not that great, way over priced in my opinion. You can easily pick one from the many S.M.S.L. or Topping's desktop heaphone amp/DAC. Again, this is only a solution for two channel listening, and in direct mode you can't use Audyssey. In stereo, if you use bass management functions and/or Audyssey the signal will go through double conversion so will still end up using the AVR's DAC anyway whatever it is.
Here's an example for an affordable external DAC
SMSL SU-6 Review (Desktop DAC)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the SMSL SU-6 stereo Bluetooth and USB DAC. It was sent to me by the company to be sold by Shenzhenaudio. It will cost US$169.99. I really like the slick look of SU-6 with its white LED: Yes, you can adjust the brightness level (I think there are...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Far superior than any Audioquest Dragonfly in the below $500 range for sure.
Made slight progress exploring my Marantz 6013 cadaver. I found an AKM AK4458VN inside. Spec sheet says this is an 8 channel DAC, so should I expect to find a second DAC chip in there? Again, this is on my 6013, not the 3700H. But if it's the right chip and the location is similar, I may be able to find it with this 5mm endoscope.
My 3700H appears to have a whole row of TI PCM5102A chips in the same area where I found the AKM on the 6013. Now that we know for sure that the DACs are different, who can get one to Amir for measurement? It bothers me that Denon would change something significant like the DAC without changing the model number. Regardless of how it measures, it should be clear to the consumer that it has changed enough that existing reviews and feedback isn't necessarily applicable.
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Oski1997
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People (on-line) have been saying the Denon DACs were changed to PCM 5102A since June. It’s only in this forum that people didn’t/couldn’t believe it was true. I don’t know why they are so hesitant to believe this fact. I’ve also read that Sound United allowed the Marantz receivers to keep the AKM4458 chips (even after May 2021 in units with serial numbers above 70,000). But again, it’s hard for people to believe that Marantz got to keep the AKM DACs but not the Denons. Is this forum for Denon owners (mostly) who need to believe Denon could in no way have a lower spec’d DAC than Marantz? I just bought my first receiver 3 weeks ago (so I’m not loyal to any one brand). I didn’t feel the need to defend either brand. It’s been clear to a noob like me that in this forum Denon owners need to defend Denon to lengths I’ve rarely seen in any other electrical product. Maybe the whole Chevy/Ford rivalry is equivalent to what I’ve experienced from Denon owners. THANK YOU for taking the time to post these pics. The Denon owners who couldn’t believe these PCM-1502a chips were used will finally see that they were changed. Now I hope someone posts pics showing that Marantz units continue to use AKM4458 DACs.
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It's only been shown/discussed that the pcm 5102a has been used on the Denon x3700h, which was in fact not mentioned in the dac ic controller notice on denon japan. While i can understand his wanting to confirm what was there on his model. It is why i have not dropped the issue in what has been used in the other models in denons range. Thanks for your input beren.
That snake camera idea was really creative.
Given this is the highest model Denon that doesn't use the discrete board processing dac, it is all kinds of possible that this is a solution only for the lower half of denons X range.
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I am one of those who did not believe Denon would have replaced the 8 channel AK4458 with the 2 channel PCM5102A that has much lower SINAD for the main channels but in recent days I have started to believe that in fact it is the case for the AVR-X3700H, based on information posted by a couple of owners of the model. I then expressed my opinion that if, and now we know they have, in fact switched to the PCM5102A, I would stay away from D+M's AVRs in general until we know more about the replacement DACs, and for the moment that's specifically the AVR-X3700H, SR6015, SR8015 and the NR1711 listed by the Denon and Marantz Japan websites. Even for the models not mentioned by the Denon/Marantz Japan website, I would wait until we know which IC they are using and the serial numbers affected.
For the X4700H and X6700H, I still believe it won't be the PM5102A based on solid evidence from Denon.jp, that is the image of the new DAC board I posted links to, but which do not know which ICs they are now using, it may even be back to the AK4458 if we can trust the two responses two members received from the Denon customer care team. Also, post#249 might also be a hint.
Just so those interested in purchasing D+M AVRs don't get misled by some recent posts on this and related threads, I would like to list the following that I managed to gather, either from member's direct findings on their units, or written responses from United Sound's Denon/Marantz Customer Care teams.
April 25 - Denon Japan announced the AKM DAC ICs replacement on models made in the spring of 2010
www.audiosciencereview.com
In the link you can see the image of the new dac board that I have posted several times, along with the one for the old board I saved.
Also note that Denon.jp did not make reference to the AVR-X3700H for whatever reasons.
April (exact date unknown)
Thanks to bigguyca who seems to be the first who linked the Marantz (Japan) notice:
in this notice, it stated that the models affected were the SR8015, SR6015, and NR1711
April 28 - The PCM5102A was reportedly rumored as the one, but the poster stated that it was pulled, indicated that the information might have been unsubstantiated:
www.audiosciencereview.com
May 7 - One member reported his AVR-X4700H has the AK4458:
www.audiosciencereview.com
June 16 - one member posted info he got from a product manager that "Fifth number from right in serial number indicates new DAC (PCM5102a) models. If the number is 7, then it is new DAC implementation."
No model number was referenced to but it looks to be the first indication that the AVR-X3700H likely have the PCM5102A, and that's the reason while I found it hard to believe, I started to accept that it probably was true, but that's specific to the AVR-X3700H as they have been no reference made to the other models that they also have the PCM IC.
August 12 - member Geoflux reported that his unit has the PCM5102A, he said he saw 7 of them.
www.audiosciencereview.com
That again, made me believe the initial rumor that this TI chip was no longer a rumor. I still don't believe it would be the one for the AVR-X4700H and AVR-X6700 based on available evidence I mentioned earlier, however superficial at the time.
November 9 - thanks to member alik1006 who posted the response he received from Denon:
www.audiosciencereview.com
So now we have it in writing the AVR-X4700H and AVR-X6700H have the AK4458, not the PCM5102A, but how reliable it is, from their customer support, is still somewhat questionable because of the still contradictory information available at the time.
November 15 - Thanks to member HerbertWest who posted the response he received from Denon Customer Care:
www.audiosciencereview.com
In this response, he was also told that the X4700H has the AK4458.
November 16 - Thanks to alik1006 again, who posted the response he received from Marantz:
www.audiosciencereview.com
So in this case, alik1006 was told that "Unfortunately our engineers no longer provide this information. (c) Customer Support Denon | Marantz"
I am sure I might have missed a post or two, and I do intend to list only the ones that at least are supported by seemingly credible information, not just hearsay or based on a phone call.
Anyone can click on the links to see what's been reported, and draw their own conclusion if they wish. In my opinion, it the exact IC is paramount to you purchase decision, then you may want to wait for further evidence, that so far we only have for the AVR-X3700H.
On the Marantz side, we also know from Marantz Japan website that the SR6015, 8015, and the NR1711 are affected, so those units may or may not have the AKM DAC chip, if made after April, or May 2011.
For the X4700H and X6700H, I still believe it won't be the PM5102A based on solid evidence from Denon.jp, that is the image of the new DAC board I posted links to, but which do not know which ICs they are now using, it may even be back to the AK4458 if we can trust the two responses two members received from the Denon customer care team. Also, post#249 might also be a hint.
Just so those interested in purchasing D+M AVRs don't get misled by some recent posts on this and related threads, I would like to list the following that I managed to gather, either from member's direct findings on their units, or written responses from United Sound's Denon/Marantz Customer Care teams.
April 25 - Denon Japan announced the AKM DAC ICs replacement on models made in the spring of 2010
Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H
Per the Denon website (Google translation from Japanese) in Japan in the product information for at least the X4700H and X6700H AVR's: "The D / A converter IC has been changed since the spring of 2021." The previous DAC IC in the two products is the 8-channel AK4458. This is a rather...
www.audiosciencereview.com
In the link you can see the image of the new dac board that I have posted several times, along with the one for the old board I saved.
Also note that Denon.jp did not make reference to the AVR-X3700H for whatever reasons.
April (exact date unknown)
Thanks to bigguyca who seems to be the first who linked the Marantz (Japan) notice:
in this notice, it stated that the models affected were the SR8015, SR6015, and NR1711
April 28 - The PCM5102A was reportedly rumored as the one, but the poster stated that it was pulled, indicated that the information might have been unsubstantiated:
Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H
Per the Denon website (Google translation from Japanese) in Japan in the product information for at least the X4700H and X6700H AVR's: "The D / A converter IC has been changed since the spring of 2021." The previous DAC IC in the two products is the 8-channel AK4458. This is a rather...
www.audiosciencereview.com
May 7 - One member reported his AVR-X4700H has the AK4458:
Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H
The 3700 or 3xxx range not sold in Japan. Drop to 2700 or jump to 4700, 4500. Disappointing since 3700 offers MultEq xt32 as well as other features in 4700 but not quite as expensive. Guess Denon wants folks to choose up or down for margins maybe leave mid tier to Marantz ? Anyway sucks for...
www.audiosciencereview.com
June 16 - one member posted info he got from a product manager that "Fifth number from right in serial number indicates new DAC (PCM5102a) models. If the number is 7, then it is new DAC implementation."
No model number was referenced to but it looks to be the first indication that the AVR-X3700H likely have the PCM5102A, and that's the reason while I found it hard to believe, I started to accept that it probably was true, but that's specific to the AVR-X3700H as they have been no reference made to the other models that they also have the PCM IC.
August 12 - member Geoflux reported that his unit has the PCM5102A, he said he saw 7 of them.
Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H
I just bought a AVR-X6700H manufactured in Nov 2020 - I'm hoping for the best. I should have it by next Weds. I may send my AV8805A to amir if he can test it quick and ship to my eventual EBay buyer. Unless of course, he finds that the ESS DACs somehow improved the performance of the 8805. :)
www.audiosciencereview.com
That again, made me believe the initial rumor that this TI chip was no longer a rumor. I still don't believe it would be the one for the AVR-X4700H and AVR-X6700 based on available evidence I mentioned earlier, however superficial at the time.
November 9 - thanks to member alik1006 who posted the response he received from Denon:
Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H
Interestingly here where I live the Denon 8500HA is significantly more expensive (by 1k) than the 8500H plus its 8k board. I wonder, are the DACs in the 8500H (not HA) guaranteed to be the AKMs? If then, it's an even better deal getting the older model. If you look at the photos on the...
www.audiosciencereview.com
So now we have it in writing the AVR-X4700H and AVR-X6700H have the AK4458, not the PCM5102A, but how reliable it is, from their customer support, is still somewhat questionable because of the still contradictory information available at the time.
November 15 - Thanks to member HerbertWest who posted the response he received from Denon Customer Care:
Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H
As I mentioned before, Denon tech support, for some reason has not been very good or useful (in my experience). In this case, their response would be correct for the models made in 2020. For units made in 2021, depending on the manufacturing date, some will have different DAC chips than...
www.audiosciencereview.com
In this response, he was also told that the X4700H has the AK4458.
November 16 - Thanks to alik1006 again, who posted the response he received from Marantz:
Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H
As I mentioned before, Denon tech support, for some reason has not been very good or useful (in my experience). In this case, their response would be correct for the models made in 2020. For units made in 2021, depending on the manufacturing date, some will have different DAC chips than...
www.audiosciencereview.com
So in this case, alik1006 was told that "Unfortunately our engineers no longer provide this information. (c) Customer Support Denon | Marantz"
I am sure I might have missed a post or two, and I do intend to list only the ones that at least are supported by seemingly credible information, not just hearsay or based on a phone call.
Anyone can click on the links to see what's been reported, and draw their own conclusion if they wish. In my opinion, it the exact IC is paramount to you purchase decision, then you may want to wait for further evidence, that so far we only have for the AVR-X3700H.
On the Marantz side, we also know from Marantz Japan website that the SR6015, 8015, and the NR1711 are affected, so those units may or may not have the AKM DAC chip, if made after April, or May 2011.
Fantastic! Thank you very much.
SoundsGood64
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@beren777 In the top photo I can see two PCM5102A DAC chips, but it's hard to count them in the bottom photo. How many PCM5102A DAC chips are there? (Perhaps you have another photo or remember from your scope trip.) The reason I ask is that there might be one PCM510x series DAC each for 'network' and Zone 2. To replace an 8ch AK4458 I suppose that would be four 2ch PCM5102A. So then the total would be 4 (main zone) plus 1 (network) plus 1 (Zone 2) for a total of 6. Anyway, if there are more than 2 PCM5102A DAC (2 account for Zone 2 and network) then those additional (4?) are likely main zone substitute for AK4458. If confirmed, then use of PCM510x series dac for main zone would mean that the AVR-X3700H can not do direct DSD via HDMI, whereas the manual indicates that it can (based on use of DSD capable AK4458 dac).
As an aside, I've never been sure why the Denon AVRs need a separate 'network' dac chip, if anyone knows why please comment! There is a separate network dac despite two lines of evidence that the HEOS (Denon network) will use the main zone dac (such as AK4458). First is that service manual digital block diagrams for several AVRs show a pathway from HEOS to the main zone dac (and even the zone 2 and zone 3 dacs). Second, Amirm's measurements using HEOS (Denon network) are very comparable to digital input via coax or HDMI suggesting use of a common electronic pathway. Background info: The AVR-X6400H used 3 PCM5100 for network, Zone 2, and Zone 3 plus 2 AK4458 for main zone. The DRA-800H (2ch AVR) uses AK4458 (main zone) plus network PCM5100 plus 'downmix' Zone 2 PCM5100.
I believe there were 6-7 PCM5102A in that row. I don't recall exact number, but I did check the row to see if any were different models.
Legal-Alien
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The reason is maybe the possibility to play a different digital source at Zone 2 / 3 at the same time the two AK4458 are in use for main zone.
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