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Denon owners of receivers with multi channel pre-outs, you'll LOVE this... if it works

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mike7877

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Warning: The below suggestion is not IAW manufacturers recommendation for hookup/setup and could result in various forms of induced AVR damage and failure. Attempt at your own risk.

To clarif

Tested and confirmed with the 3700, you can use the preamp outs as pre ins. And it sounds FANTASTIC, like holy crap FAN F*CKING TASTIC (no excessive bass with DAC output impedance of 600 ohms)

UPDATE - the point of this thread is to say the 3700 sound considerably better used just as an amplifier. Bypassing the DAC, volume control circuits, op-amps, switches, traces and other paths which add noise and distortion SOUNDS BETTER. Obviously removing a bunch of unnecessary components for stereo playback will make the system sound better. Exactly how much better does it sound? I can't take measurements, so all I can say is a LOT better

That sentence is to address the people being demanding in later pages

Continuing the post:

What it does:
Allows you access to "Power In" on the back of your 3700 to use it like a power amplifier.

Why would you do this?
It sounds a LOT better listening to music. Not that the 3700 sounds bad, it sounds great. This just makes Great into Phenomenal

How you do it:

You plug in your Decoder or DAC or Active crossover or whatever your source that needs 2, 4, 6, or 7 channel genuinely high fidelity amplification into the Rear, Rear Surround, and Height 1 RCA "Pre-outs" on the back of the 3700 (counterintuitive yes, just pretend they say "Power amp inputs".. Open a Dolby Movie and put the receiver into Pure Direct mode and turn the volume all the way down.

Use your DAC to make music through the connected amp in speakers as you desire, enjoy it a lot.

If you need less than 6 channels, 5 or less, you don't need to open an Atmos thing to pause and turn down - Just use Height 1 and Surround Wide (not back) for everything else in any other mode.

HAVE FUN


Looks like for my upcoming active crossover project I won't need to spend thousands on new amps.

Amir, you should test the performance of a Denon this way - its amp section

The top end is perfect, the bass is tight and controlled, and there's lots of detail in every octave.

I looked at the amp boards inside this receiver a while ago, they should be very easy to jerry-rig. I'll probably buy a used 3600 and mod some RCA plugs onto the 9 wires that run from the preamp board to the power amps for my active speakers project. Very awesome to know just how good the power amp section sounds in these.


Small text revision above for the breakthrough in performance realised after fiddling. I'll be back tomorrow to do some more!
 
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Newman

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sarumbear

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Tested and confirmed with the 3700, you can use the preamp outs as pre ins. And it sounds FANTASTIC, like holy crap FAN F*CKING TASTIC (no excessive bass with output impedance of 600 ohms)

The performance is next level. Night and day from using Pure Direct mode. NIGHT AND DAY

Should be safe too, maybe someone who knows the exact layout can comment.

Looks like all will work except Front and Height 2, as long as they're enabled. I'm listening in stereo with the surround channels used for 5.1 and it sounds too good for me to take a break and do more testing.

I usually turn up my DAC all the way and use a passive preamp, but the sound level vs knob position is screwed up because of a lower than normal input impedance (my Class A amp using the RCA ins in has 1063 ohm input impedance, same passive preamp behaviour).
Even handicapped by using digital volume control, AMAZING amazing sound

Looks like for my upcoming active crossover project I won't need to spend thousands on new amps.

Amir, you should test the performance of a Denon this way - its amp section

The top end is perfect, the bass is tight and controlled, and there's lots of detail in every octave.


Damn, it turned itself off. It knows! Better not happen again... Continuing. Even if I have to turn it on every fifteen minutes I'll use it this way. Update: hasn't shut off, I think I think what caused this is I put my hand on the remote behind me. I'll update this thread if it turns off again.


Ok, so, only Surround channels (surround wide, not rear) and Center seem to work this way, no matter the receiver's speaker configuration. I wonder why...
I'm still going to use it for stereo listening this way. Absolutely, positively, PHENOMINAL sound! Could be nothing, but I think I heard a slight improvement when going from 7.1 with front heights to 9.1 with front and rear heights. Doesn't make sense, but neither does only Center and Surrounds being the only channels to work this way, so I'm mentioning it


I looked at the amp boards inside this receiver a while ago, they should be very easy to jerry-rig. I'll probably buy a used 3600 and mod some RCA plugs onto the 9 wires that run from the preamp board to the power amps for my active speakers project. Very awesome to know just how good the power amp section sounds in these.
You are not making much sense. What are you doing, please explain the setup.
 
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mike7877

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Can you explain exactly what you are doing as described above, please?

Yes, connecting my DAC with RCA cables to the left and right preamp output for the 5.1 rear channels (right beside Center) and using the rear outs to power a stereo pair of front speakers
 
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mike7877

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As long as you're in a surround mode (more than fronts and center power amps enabled) the DAC's output comes through the speakers. The volume on the receiver no longer works to attenuate the DAC, so attenuate beforehand digitally. Or use a preamp of very high quality, able to drive a lower impedance of around 1000 ohms. And not passive volume control preamps as the receiver's pre-out impedance is on the lower side, and its attenuation will be skewed (volume up 80% will be like volume up 10%, volume up 90% will be volume up 50%, volume up 100% will be volume up 100%).

If you play something with the receiver's internal preamp at the same time, you will hear it too
 
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AdamG

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Pictures might help. Connection specifics. Output of what to input of what? You have me interested but have no clue what and how you are doing this.
 

Newman

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Yes, connecting my DAC with RCA cables to the left and right preamp output for the 5.1 rear channels (right beside Center) and using the rear outs to power a stereo pair of front speakers
??? That would require digital signal out of the pre-outs!
 
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mike7877

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Pictures might help. Connection specifics. Output of what to input of what? You have me interested but have no clue what and how you are doing this.

It's very simple, like hooking up to the CD input, except hooking up to the pre-out for the rears (yes, counter intuitive hooking an output to an output).
And attenuating the volume first because at full signal level it'll be like the receiver is turned to 0db.

You hook up the speakers you want to listen to to the rear speaker outputs
 

sarumbear

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Pictures might help. Connection specifics. Output of what to input of what? You have me interested but have no clue what and how you are doing this.
I think he is feeding signal in to the pre outputs of the AVR. As those connectors are simply parallel connections to the power amplifiers he is feeding signal to the power amplifiers of the AVR.

I don‘t know why the song and dance though…
 

sarumbear

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How about a video? Cause I’m lost now. Half brain might be engaged though ;)
I think he is talking on audio only. As he mentions connecting a DAC.
 
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mike7877

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Lol, how did you even think of doing this?

I like bypassing preamps whenever possible to use a passive one (sounds better this way if your components are spec'd right - low output impedance DAC and high input impedance amp). I was thinking how the pre outs must be connected to power in. Took a shot in the dark, could sound bad or good. Turns out it sounds GREAT

Edit: but it's beyond me why only center and side surrounds work. Maybe it's because the rest of them are configurable and have another circuit (switches, op-amps) between the RCA jacks and the power amp. That's probably it actually! Because even at high levels from the DAC, no sound gets through to the amplifier's other channels. So Center and Surround are the clearest cleanest quietest channels. Center is good for voice clarity, too bad it's not the center and fronts though, that'd be optimal
 
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AdamG

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So he’s connecting an analog output of his DAC to the AVR analog Pre-outputs then to the analog input of a power amp? This makes no sense to me? What am I missing?
 

Newman

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Photos or sketch seems to be essential. Talking is going in circles.
 
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mike7877

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So he’s connecting an analog output of his DAC to the AVR analog Pre-outputs then to the analog input of a power amp? This makes no sense to me? What am I missing?

No, you've got an extra step. DAC to AVR Analog pre-outs
 

sarumbear

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mike7877

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I don‘t know why the song and dance though…
Song and dance is for the discovery that the amp section can be accessed directly for much higher quality stereo playback, for those who are interested in such a thing
 
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