Denon/Marantz - the end is near

[Frank207be]

9

The thing is that the market for AVRs is disappearing. What most people have is a TV with 4 HDMI inputs one of which is eARC enabled. In to that they have possibly:

- A UHD Disc Player
- A Games Console
- A 3rd party streaming device
- A sound bar or other eARC enabled sound device

The number of people who need or want more than that is not large enough to support mass market products.

I still see no other solution than an AVR for my needs:
* Full surround bubble for Atmos movies and music
* Best possible stereo sound with exact placement of the main speakers.
* Clean undistorted playback and extension to 15Hz and lower with multiple subwoofers.
* SOTA room correction.
* Extended connectivity with a 2 media players, Blu-ray, Fire Stick, turntable and laptop.

I also have tried eARC on my TV and play Disney+ with full Atmos but I feel that bass output is restricted compared to my media player. Probably this is done to protect the cheapest soundbars? I should check this with REW though...

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I also have tried eARC on my TV and play Disney+ with full Atmos but I feel that bass output is restricted compared to my media player. Probably this is done to protect the cheapest soundbars? I should check this with REW though...

eARC should just transmit the unaltered encoded signal from the streaming service (check your TV's settings).
It is possible that your AVR set eARC to a lower volume compared to other inputs.

Yes, when it comes to movies and dedicated surround setups, AVR is the only option. As was stated earlier: people like us are in a tiny minority, potentially small enough that the benefits of large scale production are no longer applicable.

 

[Miker 1102]

Many of these brands have lost their swagger with younger buyers. They depended on their fan base of middle aged + men to keep upgrading. My 26 year old daughter has no idea what Marantz or Denon stand for as a product. In fact, maybe doesn’t even know the name. But she knows Sonos or Beats. As a whole the high end audio market lacks vision beyond selling gear to old men aging out of considering spending many thousands on a system they wish they had when they were 18. As an ad agency guy for the last 30 years I see way too much specs and stats and not nearly enough emotionally compelling reasons to want to buy a specific brand.

This is right on the money. My kids have no idea about these products and they would never think about springing 2k on a receiver. They also don't know how to hook up anything. It's all foreign to them.

 

[Miker 1102]

Each time I am going to Best Buy I see a smaller choice of AVRs and I am the only one looking at them.
For sure one day I will renew my AVR but may be it will be the last time in my life.
Manufacturers need to find a way to attract young people.
D&M are too conservative.
Alas Vox is also for sale too.
The new design from JBL is showing a new way, but technical performance and characteristics are very weak.
There is room for improvement if not a revolution in product design.

Bear Buy is so depressing when you go look there. No movies, less product, no help.
The truth is many of the mainstream brands saw thier glory days decades ago. That's why they were bought by funds and consolidated brand groups. I think Voxx and Masimo are both bleeding money from audio. Massimo purchase was a crazy idea based on patents that the ceo and founder thought would put his biometric watches on par with apple. He thought he could use the distribution systems to "synergize" his watch with Sound United into a high end lifestyle brand. He is now being sued and lost control becaue Sound United is losing money. They might sell it or shut it down and strip it. I see maybe Denon and Marantz surviving. These are well designed products. Some of thr Voxx stuff ..not so much. Voxx sold off Jamo for peanuts. They used to make nice speakers.

 

[Miker 1102]

My want would be that Sony would buy them. Sony makes excellent home electronics, but now has so little market share and marketing in the US that most customers don't even associate them with the category, outside of television. Unfortunately, as you can see from D&M's own results, it's getting just about impossible to make a profit in this market segment, which means Sony will definitely not invest in them.

This is a fact. Sony is barely reviewed for avrs and they make good products.

 

[Miker 1102]

Exactly. And apart from complaining about the lack of AKM DACs in the AVR Denon has been very reliable for me. But I also get that buying an 3800 and then up 599 extra USD for the complete Dirac package is just way too much for most

I like the akm based Denon I am using for sure. It's a great, clean sounding amp that plays mutchannel music really well. I did get the 3800 to replace it. I don't know though about sinking the extra money in for Dirac.

 

[Miker 1102]

I'm not up to date, but at least from 2010 through to covid B&W was losing rather large sums of money. If AVRs are dying as well Sound United sure need a new management team with a very different appapproach.

Yeah you are right about them not being profitable. Sound United made some money for private equity off the crazy purchase price of Masimo. It wasn't worh the money. The other thing is private equity also stopped producing lots of brands along the way..energy, mirage, boston, its a long list

 

[Miker 1102]

That's why I'm so grateful that D&M broke through the 11.2 channel barrier at more affordable prices. The cheapest Trinnov and StormAudio are 3x to 5x more expensive than my AVC-A1H

Which is where I think this hobby will end back where is started..for upper middle class. They also have the space most people don't have. Many of us on this forum are middle aged. We are the niche group of buyers for this stuff. There isn't a real market for avrs for people under 35. And as good as Denon is ..HEOS is awful compared to wiim. They could do much better.

 

[Miker 1102]

It could be a great loss of home theater consumers.

Agreed. Home theater is headed upmarket. Denon is the best bet for the average enthusiast like me.

 

[vert]

It is true that HDMI switiching from the TV works fine.
Realistically if WiiM offered a proper loudness/dyn volume feature that may well be all I need. It would be worth it then to buy an Umik and learn REW.
It may be sacrilege to some but all I'm using at the moment to power my Revels is a tiny Loxjie A30 and I honestly can't find any fault with it, it sounds excellent and powers them fine (except for the occasional party, once a year, I never listen loud for extended periods of time).
Would D&M consider it beneath them to offer such products ? While not pricing them $900-1200 - nor omitting key parts of their know-how like the room correction features. I'm no marketeer, but where I live the WiiM products apparently are best sellers.
Previous flatscreen TV did sound like crap and needed a soundbar. But the current one isn't that bad without a soundbar; it's the Sony system where the screen acts as the speaker - I don' t remember what it's called. It's plenty usable for occasional TV watchers like we are. Most action of SF movies I watch alone with headphones anyway because my wife doesn't like them.

 

[Galliardist]

It is true that HDMI switiching from the TV works fine.
Realistically if WiiM offered a proper loudness/dyn volume feature that may well be all I need. It would be worth it then to buy an Umik and learn REW.
It may be sacrilege to some but all I'm using at the moment to power my Revels is a tiny Loxjie A30 and I honestly can't find any fault with it, it sounds excellent and powers them fine (except for the occasional party, once a year, I never listen loud for extended periods of time).
Would D&M consider it beneath them to offer such products ? While not pricing them $900-1200 - nor omitting key parts of their know-how like the room correction features. I'm no marketeer, but where I live the WiiM products apparently are best sellers.
Previous flatscreen TV did sound like crap and needed a soundbar. But the current one isn't that bad without a soundbar; it's the Sony system where the screen acts as the speaker - I don' t remember what it's called. It's plenty usable for occasional TV watchers like we are. Most action of SF movies I watch alone with headphones anyway because my wife doesn't like them.

But part of the problem here is people continually demanding more for less. AVRs are necessarily complex and become more complex with each new standard and innovation. It's ironic that on the one hand people will pay a fortune for a pair of speaker cables (obviously not so much here, of course) and hundreds of whatever currency for a single vinyl LP, yet expect a 20 channel amplifier and all the video and audio standards, automatic room correction, and the rest for under $1000 US. It's not just them - our demands are equally ridiculous.

 

[napfkuchen]

Here is a video by german distributor:

bottom line:
- sound united might be sold by Masimo, but business operations are continuing
- they have contacted Masimo and were told that budgets for 2025 have already been set, product development is still ongoing (roadmaps are expected in the next months)

 

[Oddball]

Here is a video by german distributor:

bottom line:
- sound united might be sold by Masimo, but business operations are continuing
- they have contacted Masimo and were told that budgets for 2025 have already been set, product development is still ongoing (roadmaps are expected in the next months)

Would be good to see the development roadmap. They are already kind of late with announcement of some models for X900H series. X800H series was announced in Q3 of 2022 if not mistaken (leaks started in August) and 3800H and 4800H have historically been on 2 year cycle. Even if they consolidate these two models in one (and not duplicate in Marantz line or vice versa), showing them to the market would be a solid proof of life.

 

[Oddball]

But part of the problem here is people continually demanding more for less. AVRs are necessarily complex and become more complex with each new standard and innovation. It's ironic that on the one hand people will pay a fortune for a pair of speaker cables (obviously not so much here, of course) and hundreds of whatever currency for a single vinyl LP, yet expect a 20 channel amplifier and all the video and audio standards, automatic room correction, and the rest for under $1000 US. It's not just them - our demands are equally ridiculous.

Think you have hit the point. Don't think AVRs are necessarily dying from their own will, but due to price of speakers that bring them to life. All components in the audio chain (including 2 ch) except speakers have become more affordable and better performing than ever, but speakers, especially very good and great ones still cost ridiculous amount of money, even when on half-off sale.

 

[vert]

But part of the problem here is people continually demanding more for less. AVRs are necessarily complex and become more complex with each new standard and innovation. It's ironic that on the one hand people will pay a fortune for a pair of speaker cables (obviously not so much here, of course) and hundreds of whatever currency for a single vinyl LP, yet expect a 20 channel amplifier and all the video and audio standards, automatic room correction, and the rest for under $1000 US. It's not just them - our demands are equally ridiculous.

I actually need less not more: less inputs, less channels and smaller size while retaining advanced DSP features. But I understand your point: AVRs in any form are complex and expensive beasts to manufacture.

 

[GXAlan]

JIP might buy D&M. They famously bought VAIO from Sony, downsized the PC division to focus on core expertise (small laptops) instead of every type of PC. While VAIO is a “shadow” of its former self, it is a small, profitable and stable company (like Accuphase).

JIP also bought Olympus cameras. That hasn’t gone as well I think. I actually owned the OM-1 and 150-400/4.5 for a short period of time and while it was nice, I didn’t “love” it overall. The OM-1 at $1k would have been interesting but at 2k with the performance it had, I didn’t love it enough.

You can see JIP acquiring D&M and really consolidating their product line to be smaller, to help maintain profits. They would probably manufacture out of Shirakawa only, pushing the line upmarket to the x4800 type products and above.

 

[steveoat87]

AVRs are way overpriced. Before the pandemic pricing was more realistic, but went crazy afterwards -- prices should be cut in half. To my ears they don't sound as good. I was using a Denon X4800H and felt something was missing. I now have the Denon as part of a HT bypass setup and primarily use the Benchmark Preamp and Power Amp, which sound much better to my years.

 

[Oddball]

AVRs are way overpriced. Before the pandemic pricing was more realistic, but went crazy afterwards -- prices should be cut in half. To my ears they don't sound as good. I was using a Denon X4800H and felt something was missing. I now have the Denon as part of a HT bypass setup and primarily use the Benchmark Preamp and Power Amp, which sound much better to my years.

Depends on your speakers and room but obviously your test by ears doesn’t stand for much. Some AVRs might be overpriced, but then there are the ones that scream value. Prices should be cut in half? For Benchmark they should be probably cut 90%

 

[Frank207be]

eARC should just transmit the unaltered encoded signal from the streaming service (check your TV's settings).
It is possible that your AVR set eARC to a lower volume compared to other inputs.

Yes, when it comes to movies and dedicated surround setups, AVR is the only option. As was stated earlier: people like us are in a tiny minority, potentially small enough that the benefits of large scale production are no longer applicable.

I just tried Disney+ through eARC with my AVR and the TV said in the right upper corner: Dolby Vision / Dolby Atmos via soundbar. While playing the same content through my Nvidia Shield TV Pro 2019 I get more deep bass.

So IMHO the Disney+ app reads the platform/hardware (TV in this case) and decides to use a HPF to protect the soundbar as it assumes that eARC is mostly used with a soundbar?

 

[steveoat87]

Depends on your speakers and room but obviously your test by ears doesn’t stand for much. Some AVRs might be overpriced, but then there are the ones that scream value. Prices should be cut in half? For Benchmark they should be probably cut 90%

This is a silly response. The reason I switched is that the Denon didn't sound that great to me and the Benchmark sounds much better. Its like food -- I will eat what I like and not food that doesn't taste good. Agree Benchmark pricing is also high, but they stand by their products and won't be going out of business or changing their models unless there is really a need.