Denon/Marantz - the end is near

[amper42]

Agreed. They're definitely not going anywhere. The current product lineup from D+M is the best they've had in the past 20 years, if not ever. A suitable buyer will come along at some point and inherit a very nice product line. The only problem is, this isn't McIntosh, this is a billion dollar business, not a $50MM one. So buyers will be limited.

The problem is MASI purchased Sound United for 3x its fair market value. No one expected those assets to sell anywhere near that price. There won't be a new buyer for D+M until MASI is willing to accept that fact. This leaves these assets in a period of cost cutting and transition. Not where R&D thrives.

At the same time, there are more options for audio playback each day and most at lower price levels than a Denon AVR setup. From soundbars to earbuds with phone, tablet and TV's as a source. With housing prices increasing there's less room to dedicate to a speaker setup and AVR. At some point, the AVR will need to evolve to fit the needs of current generations.

 

[GXAlan]

It is weird that the Denon Japan website is down but their blog was updated as recently as the 21st

Denon 公式ブログ

1910年創業のオーディオブランド、デノンの公式ブログです。ホームシアター、Hi -Fi、システムオーディオ、ヘッドホンなど、デノン製品やオーディオ、音楽にまつわる記事を更新しています。

www.denon.jp

You have Sony which has stayed in the AVR game somewhat. (The ES line still isn’t available in Japan). You also have Yamaha which has always seemed like the Subaru of the industry; they are not the leader but have loyal following.

 

[Oddball]

Seems like D&M's revenue is not up to expectations and D&M are also, at least in EU, selling at significant discounts, which impacts margins. Definitively will impact valuation. But IP of the D&M brand and what a nifty buyer can do with it (which is not currently done) is a different question and might drive the valuation higher. To be seen where it all lands and how long it will take.

If indeed officially designated for sale (discontinued ops), that might be a sign that Masimo is more ready to deal than when D&M was in the spin-off bucket. Not to bother with accounting details, but there could be impairment now or latter and could also be attributable to level of investment of the D&M business for the future. While impairment in discontinued ops is easier to sell to the market, it is still not good and effects cash expectations from the sale.

I am also concerned with potentially shrinking AVR market, but that is also to be seen. It is IMO true that AVRs have never been better or cheaper, so that trend might be positive for AVRs. It's always difficult to predict consumer behaviour, especially in this specialised segment. I see signs of light for the new generation as my son that was never interested in HT and is mobile/laptop gen, is trying to acquire my existing HT - albeit as a gift for his new flat.

 

[GXAlan]

I am also concerned with potentially shrinking AVR market, but that is also to be seen.

Private equity has done pretty well with D&M and Sound United in the past. As much as Massimo Consumer is struggling now, the prior owners are probably doing great since the original deal was likely some mix of cash and stock, and the cash usually is sizable.

People listen to music more than ever before but the social isolation is greater than before. Take video games. We used to have to go to a friend or family member to round up a group of people to play in front of a single TV. Couch Co-op. Online gaming made it easier to always have someone to play, but it becomes a more isolated experience. Today kids often watch streamers play…

Going to movies and TV.
70% of Netflix users watch on TV.

But even TEN years ago.

But it makes sense. In the 1990’s the average bedroom TV might just be the 19” TV but as average TV size has increased, your PC or laptop may offer a very similar experience

What is missing is the mini system.

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Something like this has been in continuous production for two decades. Modernizing with sound bar HDMI CEC and wireless connectivity would be huge for high school students and college students.

We also need premium 24-27” TV. Samsung has a 32” 4K QLED but even their frame is just 1080p. In contrast we have great 24-32” desktop monitors with 4K…

Give me a $500 integrated bedroom home theater. You can almost do it with
1) $150 2.1 Klipsch Promedia + $100 to make it 4.1 and wireless
2) $200 for a 4K display
3) $50 for a streaming box

What’s missing is the software. Desktop monitors don’t do HDMI ARC, etc.

 

[Ste_S]

Yeah, except my generation can play their instruments vice sample them... But I digress. Look no further than writing credits from modern music in the last 10 years vice the stuff from 60s/70s/80s/90s. Does Coldplay REALLY need 15 songwriters to write their music?

lol, I thought your first post in the thread couldn’t get any more old man shouts at clouds, but then you post a Rick Beato video.

 

[multisport4me]

Yes, on top people got spooked by "discontinued operations" statement - which is financial reporting term, that does not necessarily mean that they are going to wind it down. At some point, once the decision will be made about the divestiture form it will be first reclassifed to to "Asset held for Sale" which has financial reporting implications and then as "Discontinued Operations" both will allow to show both lines of business clearly split

On top - Sound United was not only D&M, but also Bowers Wilkins and Polk. And nobody knows how each of these brands is doing.

That is the billion dollar question - how are EACH of these brands doing? Which of them are bleeding more than the others? Depending on how these brands get sold off, we'll get some idea.

 

[kalexan9]

That is the billion dollar question - how are EACH of these brands doing? Which of them are bleeding more than the others? Depending on how these brands get sold off, we'll get some idea.

B&W is definitely the crown jewel of Sound United. If I was buying, that's where I'd put my money. AVRs are dying. The quicker we realize that the less painful it will be.

 

[ban25]

B&W is definitely the crown jewel of Sound United. If I was buying, that's where I'd put my money. AVRs are dying. The quicker we realize that the less painful it will be.

The 801 D4 Signatures in California Burl *chef's kiss*

 

[Ste_S]

The 801 D4 Signatures in California Burl *chef's kiss*

I think it’s more for their portfolio of wireless
headphones and speakers than their trad wired speakers.

 

[Galliardist]

B&W is definitely the crown jewel of Sound United. If I was buying, that's where I'd put my money. AVRs are dying. The quicker we realize that the less painful it will be.

I'm not up to date, but at least from 2010 through to covid B&W was losing rather large sums of money. If AVRs are dying as well Sound United sure need a new management team with a very different approach.

 

[pinger]

I have three Systems. All are Int Amp, CD player and Speakers. They are NAD, Marantz, Denon. I hope they continue to make good products.

 

[dajoe]

What is the alternative to AVR? If I use soundbar or active speaker system, then passive speakers such as B&W are dead as well, at least in home cinema context. But people will want a solution that is good for both. HiFi and Home Cinema.

 

[Adahn]

The alternative is ffmpeg finally decoding atmos which they've been suspiciously dragging their feet on for years.

AVRs have always been a necessary evil forced upon enthusiasts by proprietary encoding and drm. Good riddance, do dolby next.

 

[Power Pop 23]

My speculation is the convenience of AVR's will endure with fewer brands at a higher markup to compensate for their shrinking 'share of market' to amplify home theater compared to sound bar systems.

The 'hardware product lifecycle' of an AVR can be extended in favor of software and firmware updates. The recent introduction of JBL-branded AVRs indicates Harman Audio and/or Samsung thinks the market for AVR's is worth new capital investment. Here's hoping Harman Audio improves on the measured performance of their AVR's. They could extend the Revel brand name to such AVRs and other perfomant electronic gear.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

AVRs are dying. The quicker we realize that the less painful it will be.

So uuh ... if AVR's are dying, how will we get nice surround sound for movies and games?

While I can do it via PC and it works flawlessly for music, the more busy the system is with a videogame, the more of a flustercllick the audio becomes until I give it more leeway and deal with the latency.

This news makes me think to snatch a 3/4800H before it's too late. ._.

 

[Frank207be]

I only exclusively use Denon AVR's for multichannel audio and music and couldn't be happier. What other one-box solution plays multichannel audio and does room correction? I'm really looking forward to Dirac ART coming to the actual D&M line-up.

 

[Vacceo]

I only exclusively use Denon AVR's for multichannel audio and music and couldn't be happier. What other one-box solution plays multichannel audio and does room correction? I'm really looking forward to Dirac ART coming to the actual D&M line-up.

There are others: NAD, Anthem, Arcam, McIntosh, Onkyo, Pioneer...

B&W is definitely the crown jewel of Sound United. If I was buying, that's where I'd put my money. AVRs are dying. The quicker we realize that the less painful it will be.

And how do you play multichannel without them?

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

And how do you play multichannel without them?

Technically: all you need is a multichannel DAC and a bunch of power amps.
A PC can do all the post processing that is needed including up/downmixing.

AVRs win in the "ease of use" by a landslide (ONE box, plug and play in 99% of the cases) and naturally are needed for proprietary formats content creators are too chicken to let PC decode.

Ofc AVRs lose in terms of upgradability. Only reason why I think about replacing my lil' Yammy is HDMI shenanigans and formats like Atmos.

 

[Bleib]

Technically: all you need is a multichannel DAC and a bunch of power amps.
A PC can do all the post processing that is needed including up/downmixing.

AVRs win in the "ease of use" by a landslide (ONE box, plug and play in 99% of the cases) and naturally are needed for proprietary formats content creators are too chicken to let PC decode.

Ofc AVRs lose in terms of upgradability. Only reason why I think about replacing my lil' Yammy is HDMI shenanigans and formats like Atmos.

That's a lot more complex than doing it with an AVR. Even connecting the PC to an AVR is already more complex than what most people would have the patience for.
What folks want at most is an Xbox, a bunch of cables and the soundbar / AVR helps with the settings through a guide.

 

[Vacceo]

Technically: all you need is a multichannel DAC and a bunch of power amps.
A PC can do all the post processing that is needed including up/downmixing.

AVRs win in the "ease of use" by a landslide (ONE box, plug and play in 99% of the cases) and naturally are needed for proprietary formats content creators are too chicken to let PC decode.

Ofc AVRs lose in terms of upgradability. Only reason why I think about replacing my lil' Yammy is HDMI shenanigans and formats like Atmos.

The problem is indeed decoding Atmos. And it does not seem Dolby is very willing to help pc users in that department. Ideally, some day we may get a sort of hub box where you can attach active speakers in the amount of your choice. That could be a good element to create continuity between a soundbar and increasing sources of sound.

That's a lot more complex than doing it with an AVR. Even connecting the PC to an AVR is already more complex than what most people would have the patience for.
What folks want at most is an Xbox, a bunch of cables and the soundbar / AVR helps with the settings through a guide.

Convenience aside, there are quite hard limitations with codecs.