Denon/Marantz - the end is near

[Frank207be]

I wouldn't be frightened to buy a Denon AVR right now, I just bought an 4800 as well As @EWL5 just wrote, it's very unlikely that D&M really goes completely out of business/shuts down during the next few years (I can see them being in trouble long term though if they don't change their business strategy/ product lineup), someone will buy Sound United.

Even if they really did shut down, that would be an even bigger motivator to buy one right now - that's why I did it. Since with D&M out of business, that would leave you with very little choice for AVRs - although Pioneer/Onkyo was just saved, which is great news! but they currently don't have all the features I want in an AVR (especially the 4 independent sub outs, which is an amazing feature!).

Just make sure you buy it from a reputable dealer so they deal with the warranty claims should the company not exist anymore while you are experiencing a failure. All that being said, I have to admit that I wouldn't feel comfortable with buying a >5K A1H atm since I'd want such an expensive receiver to last me 10+ years and I'd want to get it repaired even if it broke 5 years down the road. Because even without any warranty still in place, that would still be viable on such an expensive AVR and you can't do that when the company doesn't exist anymore, meaning there are no spare parts available anymore. If my 4800 breaks in 4-5 years it would still be sad but it wouldn't be the end of the world since repairing a 5 year old 1300 bucks receiver probably wouldn't really be viable anyways because a repair can easily cost 200-300 bucks if it can't be done by yourself.

Everybody decides for him/herself, isn't it?
I have the A1H for almost 2 years and I haven't regretted it's purchase once. But I'd choose the A10H though if it would have been available from the beginning,

 

[fzst]

Everybody decides for himself, isn't it?
I have the A1H for almost 2 years and I haven't regretted it's purchase once. But I'd choose the A10H though if it would have been available from the beginning,

Indeed, how much you are willing to spend/risk is a very personal thing (and of course subject to how much budget is available to you in the first plac).

Yeah, money no object, the A10H would be very high on my list as well, mostly because it's quite a bit lighter than the humingously heavy A10H but still a very capable one box solution.

 

[sask15]

I bought the A1H just recently but only because I got it for the same price CAD as the Marantz Cinema 30 retails for here in Canada. Not that I need the channels, just wanted the original 70 pound beast I guess. Hope Denon lasts for a while. I bought 5 year warranty through my dealer so would be covered. If it quit and no parts I would get a credit for a new one.

 

[GXAlan]

First Dirac-Enabled Denon Automotive Sound System Debuts at CES 2025 - Dirac

World's first Dirac-Enabled Denon Automotive Sound System Debuts at CES 2025 – Showcasing new levels of spatialization in car audio.

www.dirac.com

 

[Ibanez]

Spareparts for Denons flagship headphone is not much anymore
You can't buy the Headband Assay, complete aluminum assay for the drivers, cups with the headband, not in EU/US, it can't be ordered anymore, that is a bad sign. In December it could be ordered, but i didn't have the money back then. Now it's too late (i accuse sat on them on the couch so the headband broke)
And contacting Soununited is nearly imposdible for end cuntomers. I haven't found any email at all. But i doubt they will sell that direct to end-customer if i asked them. Those were made to the one who ordered it, not an sparepart they had on shelf, like the drivers, earpads, woddencups, and cables that still can ber ordered.

 

[GXAlan]

Spareparts for Denons flagship headphone is not much anymore
You can't buy the Headband Assay, complete aluminum assay for the drivers, cups with the headband, not in EU/US, it can't be ordered anymore, that is a bad sign. In December it could be ordered, but i didn't have the money back then. Now it's too late (i accuse sat on them on the couch so the headband broke)
And contacting Soununited is nearly imposdible for end cuntomers. I haven't found any email at all. But i doubt they will sell that direct to end-customer if i asked them. Those were made to the one who ordered it, not an sparepart they had on shelf, like the drivers, earpads, woddencups, and cables that still can ber ordered.

Try calling the phone number. The last time I needed to order something that wasn't available online (a spare box), I was directed to call. This was in 2022 after filling out a contact us support on the Marantz website.

 

[Miker 1102]

Masimo's new management will not liquidate Sound United and the associated brands like Bowers & Wilkins, Denon, Marantz, etc. They're just not happy with the financial proposals they've received from potential acquirers. I'd consider Masimo a motivated seller at this juncture as they've made it clear they do not consider Sound United as a strategic business and indicated a desire to sell. This is the dilemma of the motivated seller in general - when people know you don't want something, they will make low ball offers to begin negotiations. Exacerbating this is the fact that the brands, while valuable, become increasingly less valuable to potential buyers as time goes on and the businesses deteriorate. This will get resolved sometime in the near future and Masimo will accept the highest offer they can get.

I think you are mistaken about not liquidating. The truth is the division is bleeding money to the point where (on paper) where the bussines is useless. They have lost close to 20 percent of thr capital purchase value of this aquisition. This does not include the drop in Masiomo stock ..the aquisition has cost Masimo billions un value. I never know if they had waited out thier founder's ideas if they wouldn't be in a better postion later. He believed that his biometric patents could make a consumer device that would revolutionize the smart watch and lead into the next level of wellness. The audiology end of that was the expertise of the Sound United engineers. He was looking for a lifestyle consumer brand. The biometric tech is viable..he sued apple. My take is that nobody gove the CEO credit becaue the HT market came out of the covid boom. Instead of a potential breakthrough..wall street saw Sound United as an Albatross. Sound United makes the best 2500 music machine on the planet as far as I am concerned. Maybe Joe(CEO) bit off more than he could chew but I dint think his vision was nuts. He should have had a real competitive watch and gear near development before he purchased United. The narrative that he is just a rich audiophile is way off.

 

[Power Pop 23]

The company or companies who assemble electronic audio products for Sound United may be incentivized to seek a partner to handle marketing and distribution.

Sharp Electronics assembled electronic audio products for Onkyo before Onkyo was sold to Premium Audio Company. At the time of the sale, Sharp acquired a 25 percent stake in Premium Audio Company.

 

[mns3dhm]

I think you are mistaken about not liquidating. The truth is the division is bleeding money to the point where (on paper) where the bussines is useless. They have lost close to 20 percent of thr capital purchase value of this aquisition. This does not include the drop in Masiomo stock ..the aquisition has cost Masimo billions un value. I never know if they had waited out thier founder's ideas if they wouldn't be in a better postion later. He believed that his biometric patents could make a consumer device that would revolutionize the smart watch and lead into the next level of wellness. The audiology end of that was the expertise of the Sound United engineers. He was looking for a lifestyle consumer brand. The biometric tech is viable..he sued apple. My take is that nobody gove the CEO credit becaue the HT market came out of the covid boom. Instead of a potential breakthrough..wall street saw Sound United as an Albatross. Sound United makes the best 2500 music machine on the planet as far as I am concerned. Maybe Joe(CEO) bit off more than he could chew but I dint think his vision was nuts. He should have had a real competitive watch and gear near development before he purchased United. The narrative that he is just a rich audiophile is way off.

I'll take the other side of that wager. The B&W, Marantz, and Denon brands all have value, and someone will acquire these assets from Masimo. The current management at Masimo just doesn't like what they're hearing from potential buyers on price. In order to liquidate something like this you'd have to sell the remaining inventory at a steeply discounted price, lay off all the employees and bear the associated costs, terminate all current real estate contracts and bear the costs of doing that, cancel all manufacturing agreements and bear the costs of that, etc., etc. You would be far better off financially to simply take the best possible offer and sell the business and walk away. By doing that Masimo would be able to pocket the cash from the sale and take a tax loss on the sale of the business. Those tax losses then could be used to offset income from Masimo's existing profitable medical devices business for a number of years going forward. From a financial perspective, it's the obvious course of action.

 

[Fidji]

If there was some buyer - we would have known, as Sound United is for sale for quite some time already.

My personal estimate - they will in the end split it - sell B&W, D&M, Polk separately, liquidate Classe etc.
Somebody will see value i “great traditional British speakers”.

Sounds United never made sense.

 

[mtbdudex]

kinda on/off topic;
and Logitech ditched Harmony remotes when they owned that market ...
saw the supposedly writing on the wall, universal remote are a dying thing ... they got out but still support.

I still use a Elite in my basement HT, as many devices, however with my new Sony A95L (black Friday Nov-2024 local B&M) it actually works fine to use HDMI-CEC thru my AVR (4500H - has eARC), which has a Xbox and AppleTV thru it. I stopped using my still working Harmony 650
The apps in the A95L I use exclusively now .. yea I'm that person, instead of the AppleTV or XBox ones, just easier in 1 space.

I just have not moved the HDMI cables from AVR to Sony, which is the last step in the sacrilege of using Sony as my HDMI switch, then AVR to process the audio.
Just lazy, it works as is connected.
But the need for AVR to be HDMI switch sure has dwindled for lot of consumers, the early bugs of HDMI-CEC seem to be less.

I've not read this whole thread, but are there graphs charts of AVR sales, %'s, etc. Past 10-15 years and projected 5 year trend?
Tea leaves based on real market research.
Broken out by the good/better/best 3 bucket AVR approach perhaps?

How dwindling is the AVR market, or has the soundbar growth flattened and some equilibrium achieved, where AVR's are still needed / desired?
Hence D&M could still be relevant for $$$ ROI in the future.

 

[kyuu]

How dwindling is the AVR market, or has the soundbar growth flattened and some equilibrium achieved, where AVR's are still needed / desired?

Hard to know for sure. If the AVR market is dying, seems odd that Harman would have jumped back into the mass market AVR game with the JBL MA-series just last year when they had nothing but the high priced SDR-series for many years (and I think they also own Arcam?).

 

[chelgrian]

Hard to know for sure. If the AVR market is dying, seems odd that Harman would have jumped back into the mass market AVR game with the JBL MA-series just last year when they had nothing but the high priced SDR-series for many years (and I think they also own Arcam?).

Samsung own both Arcam and JBL via the Harman acquisition. JBL branded stuff is an odd mix for example the top end stuff is rebranded Trinnov, lower is rebranded and slightly modified Arcam I don’t know what this MA stuff is but there will only be a single fundamental design between all the brands for cost reasons regardless of what it looks like on the outside.

I think you look at the digital camera market for a model of what is going to happen, or is already happening. The top end of the market will survive but the prices will increase and the low end will cease to exist and possibly be replaced packages with a stripped down control unit such as the ‘Bravia Quad’ that Sony now sell.

 

[Power Pop 23]

Samsung own both Arcam and JBL via the Harman acquisition. JBL branded stuff is an odd mix for example the top end stuff is rebranded Trinnov, lower is rebranded and slightly modified Arcam I don’t know what this MA stuff is but there will only be a single fundamental design between all the brands for cost reasons regardless of what it looks like on the outside.

I think you look at the digital camera market for a model of what is going to happen, or is already happening. The top end of the market will survive but the prices will increase and the low end will cease to exist and possibly be replaced packages with a stripped down control unit such as the ‘Bravia Quad’ that Sony now sell.

Agreed.

I don't know if it matters but Samsung must have the 'deepest pockets' of all the companies making an entry-level (JBL MA310) AVR and can 'outlast' the competition.

So when does a company like Topping, SMSL, or Fosi Audio decide to surprise the forum and acquire the assets of Denon and Marantz (D&M) ?

 

[kyuu]

I don’t know what this MA stuff is but there will only be a single fundamental design between all the brands for cost reasons regardless of what it looks like on the outside.

You don't know anything about the MA series yet you're proclaiming it has shares a platform with the higher end AVR lines? You should probably actually look at it before making such assumptions.

 

[chelgrian]

You don't know anything about the MA series yet you're proclaiming it has shares a platform with the higher end AVR lines? You should probably actually look at it before making such assumptions.

No am not saying it shares a platform.

If you read what I wrote I said holding companies share designs between different brands they own as it makes no sense to duplicate the effort other unrelated companies sometimes license the designs for example;

- Bryston AVPs are made by Storm Audio
- High end McIntosh is Lyngdorf
- Low end McIntosh is based on D&M with the analogue side re-engineered for better performance.
- High end JBL Synthesis is Trinnov
- Mid end JBL Synthesis is Arcam with some variations like adding Dante and slightly different software.
- Denon and Marantz obviously share a platform again with variations on the analogue side.

There are more and there are more distant relationships between designs where boards layouts are shared but have different component populations, usually because two brands share an OEM and both brands designs are based on a third company’s reference design.

It is entirely possible that this JBL MA stuff is a newly designed platform but if it is it is very unlikely that it will only be used in this brand and line of products.

 

[mhardy6647]

- Low end McIntosh is based on D&M with the analogue side re-engineered for better performance.

Curious to see a specific example, especially with photographs illustrating the "based on" bits. I am assuming the reference is to hardware(?).

 

[ban25]

Curious to see a specific example, especially with photographs illustrating the "based on" bits. I am assuming the reference is to hardware(?).

McIntosh MX123:

McIntosh MX123 A/V Processor

The MX123 A/V Processor supports 8K/60Hz and 4K/120Hz resolutions and refresh rates. It marries a long tradition of uncompromising McIntosh sound quality with the latest home theater technologies to bring you an unsurpassed luxury home entertainment experience.

www.mcintoshlabs.com

Marantz AV8805A:

AV8805A - Premium 13.2 Channel Pre-Amplifier and Processor with HEOS Built-in | Marantz - US

Premium 13.2 Channel Pre-Amplifier and Processor with HEOS Built-in

www.marantz.com

McIntosh MX180:

McIntosh MX180 A/V Processor

For the home theater of today and tomorrow. With its advanced processing capabilities, the MX180 allows for full enjoyment of today's 4K video plus tomorrow's 8K content.

www.mcintoshlabs.com

Lyngdorf MP-60:

Lyngdorf MP-60 - Lyngdorf Audio

lyngdorf.steinwaylyngdorf.com

Note the MX123 has Audyssey XT32 (D+M exclusive) while the MX180 features Room Perfect (Lyngdorf).

 

[HTNut1975]

My friend's kids are around 19 years old.. and have never heard of a surround sound system in a house before. They had no idea AVRs existed! I can't foresee a huge amount of the younger generations getting into it.. hell, even their vinyl purchases go unsealed/unlistened because they don't have a turntable. If they do it's a POS Crosley that sounds worse than AM radio at times

All it takes is for them to experience it, I would think. Given the advancement of streaming platforms, seems to me there is no better time for home theater.

 

[Fidji]

The Sale is near.

From Masimo quarterly investors call

Selling Sound United - “We are in the later stages of the process. We will not be commenting further on it during this call, but we remain pleased with the level of interest and our general expectations around timing remain unchanged.”

https://s24.q4cdn.com/336820108/files/doc_financials/2024/q4/Masimo-4Q-2024-Earnings-Presentation-022525.pdf

interesting slides - Q4 so Christmas season - YoY 10% improvement vs 2023 with improvement in Gross Margin [but look at it compared to rest of biz]. It would be interesting how much of it is "real" and how is usual pre-sale "dress the bride" activities.

Full year shows bleaker picture - 10% Revenue decline

but most interesting is this part - in FY24 Masimo has written off 324 Millions of [probably] carried value of investment into SOund United, in other words, they recognized, that at least 324M of what they paid for the company is gone and Sound United has 324 million lower value than they paid for. Without further details it is hard to speculate what 153M on "business transitions" means, as Masimo was in quite some turmoil lately.