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Denon/Marantz - the end is near

So you are able to enjoy Atmos and DTS:X and the upmixed versions with that setup? Why Apple TV in particular, are there less expensive options? Thanks.
The best that could be achieved with such a setup is a bed-layer 7.1 with the Apple TV decoding the DD+/DTS-HD base layer and sending 7.1 PCM to the MiniDSP.
 
The best that could be achieved with such a setup is a bed-layer 7.1 with the Apple TV decoding the DD+/DTS-HD base layer and sending 7.1 PCM to the MiniDSP.
That I know, just not sure about 5.1.2 Atmos/DTS:X and the upmixes. If the HDMI eARC device such as a TV or Apple atV 4K can decode those, then I thought they could output the decoded signal in PCM to the Flex HT via HDMI eARC capable ports.
 
That I know, just not sure about 5.1.2 Atmos/DTS:X and the upmixes. If the HDMI eARC device such as a TV or Apple atV 4K can decode those, then I thought they could output the decoded signal in PCM to the Flex HT via HDMI eARC capable ports.
I'm fairly certain the Apple TV just pulls the 7.1 base layer out of the DD+ Atmos stream and encodes it straight, so there is no mixing into height channels nor any way to tell the Apple TV that you want to try to stuff 5.1.2 into a 7.1 PCM stream.
 
That I know, just not sure about 5.1.2 Atmos/DTS:X and the upmixes. If the HDMI eARC device such as a TV or Apple atV 4K can decode those, then I thought they could output the decoded signal in PCM to the Flex HT via HDMI eARC capable ports.
Apple TV can’t do that and it would require a non standard channel layout for the PCM8.

Recent versions of Logic Pro X can do 5.1.2 like this out of HDMI but since that is for content creation it’s assumed the user can cope with this and they have dedicated a system to the ‘wrong’ ordering.

It’s particularly infuriating since HDMI 2 is specified to allow up to 32 channels of PCM but to my knowledge no one has ever implemented support for this I expect this is Dolby’s doing again but it’s hard to tell without seeing the contracts they have with manufacturers.
 
I've been thinking recently of getting rid of my Denon (1700H) and getting a MiniDSP Flex HT.
The intent would be to use the Hypex amps I have lying around, and to get better sub integration, as the
1700H only has one sub channel (even if it has two "sub out" connectors).

Thing is, I don't have an eARC TV, so I'd have to add something like HDFury or FeinTech.
And pay extra for the Dirac license once I inevitably tire of futzing around with PEQ and bass management on my own.
And that still leaves some analog inputs I'd like to be able to connect ... maybe ADC and then optical into the MiniDSP.

All this appeals to me in the same way installing Linux from scratch and recompiling the kernel appealed to me decades ago.
I'm realizing that once all is said and done, my best bet might be ... a Denon 3800. :shrug:
 
Plug n' Play. One and Done. Complexity has a place when really called for (and that last ounce of performance or integration will actually make a sizeable improvement you can appreciate daily), but I prefer my A/V system to be streamlined while retaining incredible capabilities. A modern and affordable AVR does just that while being sufficiently performant in the process.

Reminds me of the mix-n-match subscription TV services now with everyone raising prices - we are better off going back to a unified Cable/DTV service! Ends up cheaper and more convenient (just like a modern AVR vs. a pile of "objectively better" gear). :cool:
 
The title reminds me of "My way" by Frank Sinatra....

And now, the end is near
And so I face the final curtain
My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain
I've lived a life that's full
I traveled each and every highway
And more, much more than this
I did it my way
 
I've been thinking recently of getting rid of my Denon (1700H) and getting a MiniDSP Flex HT.
The intent would be to use the Hypex amps I have lying around, and to get better sub integration, as the
1700H only has one sub channel (even if it has two "sub out" connectors).

Thing is, I don't have an eARC TV, so I'd have to add something like HDFury or FeinTech.
And pay extra for the Dirac license once I inevitably tire of futzing around with PEQ and bass management on my own.
And that still leaves some analog inputs I'd like to be able to connect ... maybe ADC and then optical into the MiniDSP.

All this appeals to me in the same way installing Linux from scratch and recompiling the kernel appealed to me decades ago.
I'm realizing that once all is said and done, my best bet might be ... a Denon 3800. :shrug:

No one has an eArc TV that does multichannel LPCM natively, a far as I know. We're all in that boat.

Don't forget the apple TV 4k. And if you need more than one HDMI input, you'll need the VROOM.

I'm selling my x4800h and have switched to Flex HT, Apple TV 4K, HD Fury VRROOM, buckeye amp, Wiim pro. New that costs $3200, much more than a x3800h, which one can find used for $1k. It's closer in cost of you compare 'new' prices.

It's not cheaper, but the components are better and it's a lot more fun to setup and operate, even with the extra remotes.

If budget or convenience are primary goals, skip the MiniDsp. If performance, features and fun are primary, the Flex HT solution is great.
 
It's not cheaper, but the components are better and it's a lot more fun to setup and operate, even with the extra remotes.

That's where going through the motions and many iterations of "what do I want and need in a system" can lead you to yearn for the streamlined approach. Especially with what today's AVR's have to offer.

I love gear and all of the patching/cabling/connecting/tweaking/whirring, and my recording setup still demonstrates that (see my sig). That is still "fun" to me. My "daily driver" A/V system has morphed from full separates into a thing of simplistic beauty - while surpassing the kludges of past systems (up to and including CEC and generally one remote; maybe two - In my new system, my Harmony and backup Harmony sit unused).

I would never be able to audibly detect switching from the X3800h to a pile of "measurably superior" gear. The speakers are the one thing that would make that come to light - and by saving on the AVR (under $1K shipped), I was able to splurge on the KH-150's for primary L-C-R duties - and that "spend" absolutely made a difference I will detect daily. This system will remain unchanged for another 10 years (just like the previous iteration with a X4000) minus the addition of a 3rd DIY sub down the road.

I was the same way when I started DIY'ing PC's back in 2000. Over-board with anything and everything from cooling/controllers, LED's, hot-swap bays/ports, RAID-0 10K Drives, Overclocking to the edge of stability - sometimes often to the demise of system reliability and sensibility. Dozens and dozens of builds later, simplicity using proven components wins the race, while basically never needing any forms of tweaking or "maintenance". An appliance. The same way a fantastic performing A/V system has become with today's one-stop-shop kitchen sink AVR's. Would a server CPU with ECC RAM and Optane, and an external FiberChannel 12 bay Server chassis run Chrome any better? Probably not (maybe measurably, but not appreciably from the user experience) :)

:cool:
 
That's where going through the motions and many iterations of "what do I want and need in a system" can lead you to yearn for the streamlined approach. Especially with what today's AVR's have to offer.
Yes. This is something about which, reasonable minds can differ. It's a preference.

For me the Flex HT is arguably the streamlined approach. I was running a higher performing 2ch music system alongside my x4800h and sharing speakers.

Now I actually have a unified pre-amp / DAC and amplification stage.

Does any of this matter? No. Not really. It's all just a series of fun projects.
 
Yes. This is something about which, reasonable minds can differ. It's a preference.

For me the Flex HT is arguably the streamlined approach. I was running a higher performing 2ch music system alongside my x4800h and sharing speakers.
Good to know, I am still using the Flex HT for 2 channel stereo with 2 subs running DLBC but I bought a 2nd unit, intending to try it with my TV, that has ARC but not eARC, so may have to wait until I get approval to upgrade the TV before trying what you are doing.
Now I actually have a unified pre-amp / DAC and amplification stage.

Does any of this matter? No. Not really. It's all just a series of fun projects.
I kind of feel the same, don't really need them as such, but...
 
I was the same way when I started DIY'ing PC's back in 2000. Over-board with anything and everything from cooling/controllers, LED's, hot-swap bays/ports, RAID-0 10K Drives, Overclocking to the edge of stability - sometimes often to the demise of system reliability and sensibility.
After experiencing a custom loop, I will never return to noisy systems with humungous air cooling klutzes. System pegged at 100% and still inaudible. That's how I like them. :'D

Totally agreed on the overclocking though.
Back in the day, you could basically clock your CPU a tier higher, save cash and get a performance uplift you can notice.
These days, hardware is already so at razor's edge, all you do is beef up the power consumption and heat generation for slightly higher benchmark scores you won't feel in any practical scenario.

Kinda like going from a SINAD -90 to SINAD -100 device. Lots of effort, you know the improvement is there but it is imperceptible.
 
Kinda like going from a SINAD -90 to SINAD -100 device. Lots of effort, you know the improvement is there but it is imperceptible.
Emphasis mine. And thus where I am today :) I prefer my laborious efforts to have some benefit (aka - be perceptible), or else it's going through the motions (lots of effort) for an admittedly imperceptible benefit. It's a "feel-good" thing - That I can appreciate - but that's not a good ROI acoustically at the ear IMNSHO (arguably a terrible ROI being imperceptible). A descent AVR, then speakers get all the cash = a perceptible improvement.
 
A descent AVR, then speakers get all the cash = a perceptible improvement.
As someone who switched from a "complicated" solution for room correction (DAW + Virtual cable for system wide correction but still PC only, no dice for other sources) to an 4800H, I couldn't be happier.

While I can enjoy the fiddling and engineering behind it, in every day use I prefer simplicity. The attention should be with the content, not the gear.

Sort of agreed on the speakers, although there too is a diminishing return. As a Focal owner I listened to the Utopia. At similar volume levels they sound no different than my Arias (obviously no need for a sub with those) and cost 100x as much. To this day I feel like a thief for getting my 906 new, for a measly 230€ a pop!

If you want to pump a lot of cash into a speaker, I say make damn sure you have the room for it.
Treatments, top-positioning capability (a.k.a.: dedicated room) + the ability to play reference levels w/o anyone bringing out the pitchforks. :X
 
If you want to pump a lot of cash into a speaker, I say make damn sure you have the room for it.
Treatments, top-positioning capability (a.k.a.: dedicated room) + the ability to play reference levels w/o anyone bringing out the pitchforks. :X
Check, check, check :)

I never cease to be amazed how many people spend so much $$$$ on gear trying to get "that last 5%" - yet few actually treat their rooms (which is >50% of the system!) - even around here.

The title reminds me how off topic this thread has gone. What can be read as „the end“ for D&M might not be so near. ;)
I don't think D/M will be gone anytime soon. Seems Onkyo was recently kept alive after filing for bankruptcy, and I'm pretty sure Denon has far more marketshare. Regardless, the X-x900H series is likely already engineered at this point...
 
Not really sure I get the point. Some people have the ability to buy gear, but not necessarily to chose the rooms for a variety of reasons. In my experience, great speakers will still sound better in those bad rooms than lesser speakers. There is obviously some (or even lots of) waste with this approach but if that is all one has, I'd say it's a fair game as long as cost vs benefit is accounted for.

An example: if I wanted to choose a new "room" that would meet my requirements, the cost would be EUR 700K at least as my wife would rather stay where we are or move to a real mansion. I don't find that cost acceptable at all. So if I spend 20K more or less on the speakers that make me happy is still quite a bargain.

Multi purpose rooms are often difficult, so even if you treat first point reflections (to the extent possible in a given setup), you still have a really difficult situation to deal with with adjacent spaces, corridors, stairways etc.
 
In my experience, great speakers will still sound better in those bad rooms than lesser speakers
I think this is mainly relevant for apartment dwellers like me. Our main limitation is the inability to play loud. That alone renders expensive speakers fairly pointless because you mostly pay for higher SPL handling at lower distortions aimed at large rooms rich people have in their houses.

Ofc the "cheap" speakers need to still be technically excellent and have good measurements, otherwise yeah: the expensive one will blow them out of the water even in a suboptimal room.

Still, when offered to be able to hear the Focal Utopias that cost some 28000€ a piece, I expected the need to collect my jaw from the floor. Not the sensation of "hmm doesn't sound all that different than my system when I play them with similar SPL constraints".

When it comes to music listening, I envy those rich folks in their houses, able to just let it rip until their ears bleed. I can barely go past 90dB (Z) peak w/o the neighbor getting an involuntary concert invitation. :'D
 
I did not want to make distinction between the rich and no so well off, just about the circumstances. Even if you did have a big house with the family, you would likely not be able to crank it up unless buried in the basement of that house with some good acoustic isolation, or family is out.

I do live in a flat, and able to play pretty loud (-5db to reference) during regular hours as have agreed that with the neighbours. They do not tolerate shaking of the walls and floors/ceilings, except for rare peaks, so I do take care of that. So I do roll off the subs by 25hz as that is when the problems start. That also works well for me as going too loud too low wrecks my place as well. Otherwise, due to building construction they are really not suffering from the average volume of 80-85dB.

Going up the speaker latter will give you significant returns up to certain point. I do agree that it starts making less sense as you move higher up. Where is the point where one can see sweet spot is quite individual. Often people find that spending 5 vs 10k for a pair of speakers is going to give them relatively less than same move in the category below that. Moving above 10K for a pair is well, subject to another layer of diminishing returns.
 
Good to know, I am still using the Flex HT for 2 channel stereo with 2 subs running DLBC but I bought a 2nd unit, intending to try it with my TV, that has ARC but not eARC, so may have to wait until I get approval to upgrade the TV before trying what you are doing.
I didn't think the Flex HT would do DLBC? I didn't think any MiniDsp product does true DLBC although one can do DLBC from a PC and route through the Flex HT.

If you only want 2 channels of TV, ARC should be fine by the way.
 
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